David Tee has addressed at some length a discussion we have been having on the subject of abortion and teenage pregnancy. Let’s take a look at his more detailed response and see if he makes a reasonable case for his position. David’s text shall be in purple. Where David has quoted me, I’ll place that text in quote bubbles as WordPress isn’t letting me change the colour.
If you have been reading our website regularly, you will know that we got into a discussion about letting 13-year-olds have abortions or not. To some, this is a complicated issue.
To others, it is not as God’s rules do not change no matter the age of the person committing the sin. We will quote some of the comments and address them more specifically than we did in the comment section so everyone is clear on this issue.
Of course, you will notice that the person providing the argument that they should be allowed abortions does not quote one scripture to support his argument. it is all his personal point of view which may be shared by countless others.
That is the difference. We do not care about people’s personal points of view because they are not the last word on this topic and they do not hold an authoritative office superior to God. Most of the time, their personal points of view are heavily influenced by evil.
A few initial thoughts. In many ways this is not a complex issue. Women have the right to determine what happens with their own bodies. The religious right expends a huge amount of effort dehumanising women. It pushes the narrative that a woman’s life is unimportant. Nowhere is this clearer than with the abortion debate. Nowhere does David make this clearer than in our scenario.
Where is the respect for the life of the 13 year-old girl in this scenario? it’s nowhere. Where is the respect for rape victims? It’s nowhere. Instead there is the continued narrative that the religious right should be able to impose their beliefs onto others, even at the expense of the well-being of others.
I’ve saved your page so we’ll see who makes edits David. I’ve saved this comment too, so we’ll who is dishonest (and guess what, it’s you)
Go ahead we do not care if you do that or not. Just give us the credit when you do so. You are helping our cause by spreading the words God wants his creation to hear.
Also, spare us the false charges as we made it well-known we will edit certain comments especially when they are insulting us. You will look better if we edit out insulting terminology.
David has historically edited out fact-driven arguments that contradict him, such as in our recent vaccine discussion but also in discussions on faith healing and, going back a few years (to one of our earliest conversations) he did so when discussing discrimination and employment law. So it’s important that I make sure to archive his posts and comments, given his past behaviour. Lying is not a good look, but least of all for a pious Christian.
As for whether I will give him credit for his words… well I guess that’s the difference here. Whereas David has not linked back to our discussion on my site, I will provide a link to his post, for the sake of transparency.
Is abortion wrong in the event that a minor is raped David?
Yes, it is and even our British antagonist knows that 2 wrongs do not make a right. never has and both Christians and non-Christians know this fact. It hasn’t changed in 5000 years.
Plus, the Bible does not teach that you can do wrong to correct a wrong. it does teach that you are to obey God at all times even when someone is doing wrong to you. Turn the other cheek is just one of those lessons.
All the verses on forgiving others is another set of passages one needs to incorporate into this situation as is vengeance is mine says the Lord. The crime does not nullify biblical teaching.
If the Bible does not show any mercy to a child rape victim then I call into question the validity of the Bible as a moral code. It is typical of the religious right to demand that even a rape victim should be forced to endure the physical and psychological trauma of pregnancy (especially if that pregnancy arose through rape). Given that the religious right is dominated by men, who will never understand what it to be pregnant, I am not surprised at their lack of sympathy and compassion for the victim of a violent sexual assault.
So… if a 13 year-old girl is raped, she must then be expected to carry the baby to term?
Yes, she must unless an accidental miscarriage takes place. The developing child did nothing wrong here that warrants the taking of its life. The 13-year-old is not at fault for being raped or becoming pregnant, she had no say in it either thus she should not be expected to endure the guilt, trauma, and psychological issues that come with having an abortion.
The Bible, in the OT, explicitly states that children are not to pay for their parent’s sins. They are not guilty of rape.
Oh the irony. The child in this scenario is the 13 year-old who is paying for ‘sin’ of being raped. The 13 year-old is the victim, and yet she is being punished. Is she invisible to David? The trauma comes from being forced to proceed with a pregnancy she didn’t want and that comes from violent violation. Does her life have no value? To the religious right, clearly it doesn’t.
So your sympathy for underage rape victims is… what exactly?
Exactly where it should be. If that were our calling, we would do what we can to help her through this situation. As we stated, she is not guilty of rape nor for getting pregnant so she would not lose standing in our eyes and deserves the best Christian care possible.
Our sympathy does not include helping her to sin by killing her innocent child. Christian love does not encourage the use of sin nor help anyone to sin. In the case of hiding Anne Frank or other Jewish people, hiding them can be seen helping the oppressors to not sin by keeping them from killing people simply because they are Jewish people.
The Christian ‘care’ appears to be forcing her to face the anguish of a pregnancy she didn’t want, at huge cost to her physical and mental health. That isn’t sympathy. That’s cold and cruel. She isn’t guilty of rape but apparently she needs to bear the consequences, no matter how horrible for her they may be.
So a minor is the victim of an horrific crime and then they should be forced to undergo the tremendous trauma of pregnancy and childbirth (which by the way, can kill or cripple kids of that age).
You’re advocating that kids be forced to have kids.
This comment provides a great example of how the world distorts life and development. If the girl is old enough to get pregnant, she is no longer a child. it is a sad state of affairs that life has developed to the point where teenagers are still considered children.
Yes, they do have a lot to learn but then so do those adults who are past the legal age of majority. We are doing a great dis-service to teenagers by stunting their mental, educational, and experiential growth by keeping them classified as children. Then treat them as such.
Wow. This is a sorry state of affairs. A girl’s physical ability to get pregnant does not define whether or not she is a child or an adult. You might as well reduce her to a base breeding machine if that’s what you believe. Besides, at 13 a person hasn’t finished growing and developing. The ability of a body to produce eggs doesn’t mean her birth canal, hips or the rest of her body can cope with pregnancy, but more on that later.
We do wish that person would stop using inflammatory and distorted adjectives to describe rape and pregnancy. It is overly dramatic and makes constructive discussion virtually impossible. it also taints the discussion with the user’s personal bias that makes it hard to talk to them.
Emotion has always been a problem when it comes to talking about sensitive issues. What he left out in his comment is any allusion to parents who should be there to help their young daughters in this situation.
Inflammatory language… is David joking? Rape is a serious and horrible violation of another human being! There is nothing distorted about that! I won’t sanitise what rape is just because it appears to make David uncomfortable. It’s called reality, and of course it’s emotional. David is telling rape victims their lives don’t matter, because a cluster of cells is more important. Quality of life should be a part of the pro-life equation too, yet it never is.
Does Age Make a Difference
If you have been reading our website regularly, you will know that we got into a discussion about letting 13-year-olds have abortions or not. To some, this is a complicated issue.
To others, it is not as God’s rules do not change no matter the age of the person committing the sin. We will quote some of the comments and address them more specifically than we did in the comment section so everyone is clear on this issue.
Of course, you will notice that the person providing the argument that they should be allowed abortions does not quote one scripture to support his argument. it is all his personal point of view which may be shared by countless others.
That is the difference. We do not care about people’s personal points of view because they are not the last word on this topic and they do not hold an authoritative office superior to God. Most of the time, their personal points of view are heavily influenced by evil.
I’ve saved your page so we’ll see who makes edits David. I’ve saved this comment too, so we’ll who is dishonest (and guess what, it’s you)
Go ahead we do not care if you do that or not. Just give us the credit when you do so. You are helping our cause by spreading the words God wants his creation to hear.
Also, spare us the false charges as we made it well-known we will edit certain comments especially when they are insulting us. You will look better if we edit out insulting terminology.
Is abortion wrong in the event that a minor is raped David?
Yes, it is and even our British antagonist knows that 2 wrongs do not make a right. never has and both Christians and non-Christians know this fact. It hasn’t changed in 5000 years.
Plus, the Bible does not teach that you can do wrong to correct a wrong. it does teach that you are to obey God at all times even when someone is doing wrong to you. Turn the other cheek is just one of those lessons.
All the verses on forgiving others is another set of passages one needs to incorporate into this situation as is vengeance is mine says the Lord. The crime does not nullify biblical teaching.
So… if a 13 year-old girl is raped, she must then be expected to carry the baby to term?
Yes, she must unless an accidental miscarriage takes place. The developing child did nothing wrong here that warrants the taking of its life. The 13-year-old is not at fault for being raped or becoming pregnant, she had no say in it either thus she should not be expected to endure the guilt, trauma, and psychological issues that come with having an abortion.
The Bible, in the OT, explicitly states that children are not to pay for their parent’s sins. They are not guilty of rape.
So your sympathy for underage rape victims is… what exactly?
Exactly where it should be. If that were our calling, we would do what we can to help her through this situation. As we stated, she is not guilty of rape nor for getting pregnant so she would not lose standing in our eyes and deserves the best Christian care possible.
Our sympathy does not include helping her to sin by killing her innocent child. Christian love does not encourage the use of sin nor help anyone to sin. In the case of hiding Anne Frank or other Jewish people, hiding them can be seen helping the oppressors to not sin by keeping them from killing people simply because they are Jewish people.
So a minor is the victim of an horrific crime and then they should be forced to undergo the tremendous trauma of pregnancy and childbirth (which by the way, can kill or cripple kids of that age).
You’re advocating that kids be forced to have kids.
This comment provides a great example of how the world distorts life and development. If the girl is old enough to get pregnant, she is no longer a child. it is a sad state of affairs that life has developed to the point where teenagers are still considered children.
Yes, they do have a lot to learn but then so do those adults who are past the legal age of majority. We are doing a great dis-service to teenagers by stunting their mental, educational, and experiential growth by keeping them classified as children. Then treat them as such.
We have always respected the Jewish tradition of Bar and Bat Mitzvahs where members of that faith get a ceremony letting them know that they have left childhood and became an adult. This lack in most other religions and cultures is probably one reason parents have so much trouble with their teenagers.
Parents need to learn to let go and spend more time training and teaching their children instead of ‘letting them have a childhood.’ This too is an issue for another day.
We do wish that person would stop using inflammatory and distorted adjectives to describe rape and pregnancy. It is overly dramatic and makes constructive discussion virtually impossible. it also taints the discussion with the user’s personal bias that makes it hard to talk to them.
Emotion has always been a problem when it comes to talking about sensitive issues. What he left out in his comment is any allusion to parents who should be there to help their young daughters in this situation.
But that narrative did not fit his point so he ignored it completely. That is one reason why we do not answer his comments more fully. If life were fair, people around the world would have first-class medical treatment without corruption.
Unfortunately, because sin abounds, another pertinent issue that person ignores, life is not fair and parents do not always help their children. allowing young teenagers to abort is the easy exit out of a tough situation. It is not the right one.
Again, is David joking? Abortion is a tough choice and certainly not the easy option. It should however be the option available if needed, for the sake of a woman’s health and well-being. As mentioned before, these things are unimportant to the religious right.
Nothing has been overstated because I didn’t make any sort of claim as to the frequency of teen death or injury due to pregnancy and childbirth. However, since it’s clear you clearly did not do any kind of check of your own, take a look here:
Do you see those numbers David? Pregnancy is the greatest killer of teenagers between 15-19.
This too is a topic for another day but there is a problem with just making this type of comment. One, has been cherry-picked. Two, he starts talking about 13 year-olds and rape.. Those figures are not limited to rape or 13-year-olds.
Three, he broadens the discussion to include facts and figures in order to make his point even though we were not talking about any girl older than 15. Four, he ignores all other influences and possible aid that has been and is provided. furthermore, he leaves out important details when he makes his next point:
David is being obtuse. As part of our conversation I looked into the dangers of pregnancy for women, especially teens. The link he quietly omitted is here. There is another link here.
To quote from the second link:
Worldwide, complications in pregnancy are the “number one killer” of girls and young women aged 15-19, the report says, adding that 50,000 teenage girls and young women die during pregnancy and childbirth every year, in many cases because their bodies are not ready to bear children.
Emphasis mine, for reasons that I will clarify in a moment. There’s no cherry-picking here, only David ignoring uncomfortable facts. The risk to teenagers of dying from pregnancy and childbirth is much higher than with adults, because they are not physically ready for it.
Teenagers are not physically developed enough for pregnancy or childbirth, and the babies themselves suffer complications as well, as per the above link.
Since when? young girls have been giving birth and enduring pregnancy since the beginning of time. if they can get pregnant then their bodies are ready for pregnancy.
If the baby suffers complications, it is usually due to other factors, not the teenager’s body. We left out the links as they were not pertinent to the issue and need to be dealt with at another time.
Keep in mind that those websites he linked to are from secular sources and do not tell the truth in most cases.
David left out the links and then engaged in the poisoning of the well fallacy, because he wishes to be untroubled by facts. This is yet another example of dishonesty in my book.
As mentioned earlier, a teen’s body is not as developed as an adult’s, hence why teen pregnancy kills at the rate it does. The babies are more likely to die as well, which is clearly due to complications with the pregnancy. To quote from the first link:
Babies born to teenage mothers are also at greater risk of infant mortality than those born to slightly older mothers, with the mortality rate 30 per cent higher for babies born to teenagers than for those born to women in their 20s.
You clearly ignored the numbers of teens who die and suffer as a result of pregnancy,
No, we do not ignore such things but take them with a grain of salt as often the source for the girl’s demise is often mis-identified or altered for whatever reason the medical professionals and statistic takers have.
The problem with that person making the comment is that he cannot accept the death happens and that it is something that can be wiped out. It can’t. The Bible tells us that it is appointed unto man once to die and that verse does not exclude women.
David does ignore the numbers and in his rush to say ‘death happens’ demonstrates he doesn’t understand that some deaths are preventable.
2
0
20
“If the Bible does not show any mercy to a child rape victim then I call into question the validity of the Bible as a moral code”
Your concept of mercy means the death of an innocent person. You are in no position to question anything
You lack any mercy.
P>S. you are nothing but a Liar
Is that the best you can offer as a rebuttal? You hid the links to facts that demonstrate your flimsy points to be wrong. You refused to link back to my post, which tells me you have no interest in being transparent with your audience. You addressed nothing and fall back on spurious accusations. Why am I not surprised?
I am not rebutting. I do not need to , your false information is exposed very clearly. Plus, you forget, I do not post according to your rules or regulations. I post according to God’s.
You have no real authority nor do you have any real support for your views. They are all on you and very subjective. Also, I am not going to be drawn into an internet fight. You have said your piece, I have said mine and that is where it will end.
You’re not refuting anything because you can’t. You’re saying the information I linked to is false but that’s a dishonest attempt at the poisoning of the well fallacy. On my site, facts and evidence matter, and you have yet again left comments that show they mean nothing to you.
Your authority is no greater than mine. Your arguments *are* subjective, and highly emotive.
Your remarks at BGs site show how limited you are in your grasp of life. There is no such thing as ‘having a childhood’ and once children reach puberty, they are no longer children.
I live in a country where ‘having a childhood’ according to your ideals does not take place. Are you going to take over this country and force your ways on the people here?
You are unrealistic in your point of view.
Your remarks imply you’d have no problems with the child labour laws of the 18th Century. My daughter is 11, and already undergoing puberty. She is not physically or emotionally ready for motherhood. She deserves to have an education, make friends and have a childhood.
Pass this on to your friend BG– https://theologyarchaeology.wordpress.com/2021/08/25/how-we-are-treated-3/ I am sure he will get a kick out of it
I am reminded of a phrase. ‘Do unto others as you would have them do unto you’.
Bruce is not going to be interested in what you have to say. Frankly, I am not certain if I am willing to devote any further time to our ‘discussions’.
Yes, you and BG should remember that as you try to do things to me. it is obvious that you have no concept of ‘having a childhood’ and are not listening to anything said to you. That is why it is pointless talking with you
You should heed that edict yourself David. You’ve frequently been difficult and awkward and at times deceptive in our dealings. *I* know what a childhood is, whereas you seem to want to deprive kids of theirs for arbitrary reasons.
You miss the boat on ‘childhood’ and the only one being deceptive is you.
I won’t miss the discussions if you decide to do that and BG is always a quitter
I’m a father David. I also know history. If you believe childhood to be a falsehood, then will you advocate for 13 and 14 year-olds to vote? To hold political office? To be placed in positions of societal and economic authority?
Bruce withdrew from conversing with you because you refuse to acknowledge any evidence that suggests you are wrong. I am racking my brain, trying to think of a single occasion where you have been prepared to even *consider* the possibility you are wrong on any point. Indeed, I have a long memory and I recall how you removed the proof you are wrong about employment and discrimination laws, all those years ago.
Instead of acknowledging your error, you doubled down, and that’s not been the only occasion where you’ve hidden or removed information and facts that have contradicted you. What is they say about pride David? It’s prideful to think you are never wrong, yet I’m struggling to think of an occasion where you’ve admitted otherwise.
Bruce has taken the sensible move to prevent you from causing him grief, which isn’t quitting. You may consider it such, and you may consider me a quitter too, but I don’t have infinite patience for your semantics and the way you twist my words. Your comments have always been allowed here, unfiltered and unmoderated (a point I have to you frequently, yet you have never acknowledged that), whereas mine get edited or denied. I am transparent and when I quote from your site I link to the post so people can see *exactly* what the context is. You cannot say that you always do the same.
So that’s it, as far as I’m concerned. If you won’t abide by fair rules, you don’t get to post here anymore. As and when you are prepared to conduct yourself with more honesty and less hostility, that could change.
“Bruce has taken the sensible move to prevent you from causing him grief, which isn’t quitting. ”
There you go again. Reading into my comments without taking the time to clarify what I was referring to. I was not calling him a quitter because he banned me, who cares, happens all the time. But in your haste to attack me, you distort what I said and apply your own meaning. That is wrong.
You and Bruce are not right. I would not go to you or him to correct my views. You guys are not authorities nor have omniscience. So you may make the charge that you do but again, you apply the wrong reasoning.
Sorry but your name-calling and your distorted views do not clarify the situation. I made it a point to say upfront to everyone that comments can and will be edited so I have done nothing wrong.
Oh and while you posed interesting questions at the beginning, giving time to them here would be a waste. You are not the only person to be a father, your views are subjective, not objective.
I see BG could not resist writing one more article about me. He has me all wrong and I would not write an article like the one he predicted I would write. HE is like you hurling false accusations. Identifying what his personality is does not mean I am hurling psychological pain at him. It is showing his lack of credibility and his common theme of trying to make bad things look good.
Also, I have stopped trying to comment when I saw how vicious he was. His behavior is nothing to be proud of. He is a bad person because he has nothing good in him and it is his behavior and how he treats people that define that analysis. Then he may not go to other sites but his followers do. He doesn’t try to stop them so he is as guilty as they are.
I am sad he is so sick but there is nothing I can do. he burnt the bridge to his only hope a long time ago. I do not feel sorry for his narcissm though. He needs a lot of attention. So sad to se ehim act this way.
I really, REALLY wish people who know nothing about Judaism would stop using it to justify their arguments. It just makes me furious.
For the record – Bar and Bat Mitzvah, in the majority of Jewish practices, is a traditional joining of the adult religious services. It does not make the person, in a literal or child-bearing sense, an ADULT.
Not to mention that Judaism believes that, before the baby breathes, the MOTHER’S LIFE AND WELL BEING TAKE PRIORITY. While we hold life sacred, we understand that the mother’s life – including emotional and psychological well-being – takes priority.
(As with any religion, I can only say this is my experience and the information available. No religion is a monolith.)
I hope it’s obvious, I’m not irked by you, Ben. I know you were quoting someone else. 🙂
Don’t worry, I understand . I get your frustration too. That’s why I’m no longer engaging with David, not until he can demonstrate a willingness to listen.
That’s a rare quality to find nowadays, I think. Online AND off.
Very much so.
Do you know what’s funny? David’s now leaving comments (which is odd, since he knows they won’t be permitted through) calling me an idiot. What part of his belief system permits him to level jibes and insults?
I believe you are reading into our words. Then if you are only speaking from your experience, that leaves room for others to have their own experience. The following comes from a Rabbi: “The bar mitzvah ceremony celebrates a Jewish boy’s 13th birthday (on the Hebrew calendar) and his elevation to adult status in Judaism”. https://www.chabad.org/library/article_cdo/aid/3755749/jewish/What-to-Expect-at-a-Bar-Mitzvah.htm
Adult status means different things to different people. However, we said we respected the ceremony and nothing else. Stop reading into our words what you want. Then puberty brings full reproductive activity which does not happen at 18 or 20. So teenagers are not children.