It would appear that Idazmi7 is committed to outright lies and misrepresentations. In this part of my response to his arguments, I address the point he raises about Starfleet fleet strength in more detail.
This video includes evidence from both series. The technology is strongly in Star Trek’s favor: the Starfleet has ~30 ships like Enterprise, and has 97,000 other ships. No contest.
If Starfleet has 97,000 ships, why was a Dominion force of 2,800 ships in ‘Sacrifice of Angels’ believed to be enough to overwhelm both the Federation AND the Klingons?
Because not all of the Federation fleet is located in exactly one spot, and the Dominion had far superior technology.
What evidence do you have to offer that suggests the Federation fleet is so large or that the Dominion has far superior technology to the Federation? The only advantages the Dominion demonstrated to begin with were subspace transporters and their weapons’ ability to ignore Federation shields, the latter advantage being nulified by the time of ‘A Call to Arms’. Dominion ships are no faster and no more powerful.
“A Call to Arms” is a later episode. You sat here and nullified your own argument.
Your comment shows their superior technology. Your comment about “no more powerful” is damned idiotic.
Firstly, he displays either ignorance about the timeline of the episodes (‘A Call to Arms’ comes before ‘Sacrifice of Angels’). Secondly, he confuses a tactical advantage as a sign that Dominion ships are significantly more powerful than Federation vessels (despite the fact that a Jem’Hadar attack ship couldn’t destroy a puny runabout in ‘Treachery, Faith and the Great River’). The Dominion’s ability to penetrate Federation shields was not due to the power of their weapons but the design of the weapon, and once this advantage was dealt with the two forces were on roughly equal footing, with some Dominion designs proving more powerful than their Federation counterparts, but also some Federation designs proving more powerful than some Dominion designs!
How so exactly? You claimed that Starfleet has 97,000 ships. When I challenged this by pointing out that the Dominion reinforcements numbered at 2,800 and were enough to overwhelm both the Federation AND Klingons, you claimed this was because the Dominion had ‘far superior technology’. The only true advantage the Dominion had was gone by ‘A Call to Arms’, which is an EARLIER episode to ‘Sacrifice of Angels’, where the Dominion reinforcements are due to come through the wormhole.Not to mention of course, that in combat scenes in the war Dominion forces are never demonstrated to be more powerful than Allied ones. Yes, SOME ship classes are more powerful than SOME Allied ship classes, but the reverse is true as well! Why not provide evidence for Starfleet’s huge numbers instead of inventing them?
N.C.C. = Naval Construction Contract.N.C.C 1701 = EnterpriseN.C.C. 97000 = SovereignIt’s a starship I.D. number. When a ship is destroyed, they replace it, but they give the new ship the same I.D. (reference, the Enterprise, et al)The Dominion clearly has more powerful ships.
Not only is Idazmi7 wrong about the prefix NCC (it has never been canonically defined), he assumes every registry number is recycled, even though this is not demonstrated. It is typically an honour reserved for famous ships, like the Enterprise, but it is hardly a given for every ship in the fleet! Additionally, Starfleet issues registry numbers to runabouts and for all we know, cargo ships and transports, which would inflate the registries in use without referring to military vessels.
The NCC prefix has never canonically been defined: http://en.memory-alpha.org/wiki/NCC Furthermore, even IF it works in the manner you claim, it would undoubtedly include ships which had been decommissioned, and runabouts as well. This is assuming you are correct, and there is very little evidence to support this.Dominion ships are not significantly more powerful than Federation vessels. They had weapons that bypassed Federation shields in the beginning but this was not accomplished through firepower but by a more sophisticated weapon system that, ultimately, the Federation was about to develop a counter for.If the Dominion enjoyed such a huge advantage, why did they send a fleet twice as large as the Federation fleet sent to retake DS9 in ‘Sacrifice of Angels’? Surely they wouldn’t need to if their ships were so much better.
Wrong. The decommissioned ships are replaced by another, newer ship with the same registry: the Enterprise has gone through that 6 times: all of them are “NCC-1701”. The prefix was defined by Eugene Roddenberry and Matt Jeffries. Not an “anyone can edit” wiki page. And it obviously doesn’t include runabouts or shuttles, which are given the registry of their parent ship.“Dominion ships are not significantly more powerful than Federation vessels”You are a LIAR. Simply watching the show will reveal that they are. The characters say as much constantly, as in the DS9 episode “Valiant”
It’s funny how he criticises my use of Memory Alpha, yet if you look through the comments on his videos, he’s quite happy to use it himself when it benefits him. Nor does he provide a source for his claim about the prefix (though I suppose it’s a nitpick at the end of the day). He assumes that because the Enterprise’s registry has been recycled several times this applies to all Federation vessels, convieniently ignoring the fame of the Enterprise and how she’s traditionally been the flagship. He is also wrong about runabouts.
His reference to ‘Valiant’ is yet another example of wilful misrepresentation of the facts. In the episode, a Defiant-class ship by the name of Valiant goes up against a Dominion battleship said to be three times as powerful as a Galaxy-class starship. The Valiant attempts to exploit a supposed weakness in the enemy ship but the plan fails and the Valiant is destroyed.
The episode does not claim all Dominion ships enjoy a 3-1 power advantage over Federation ships, and even if they did, the Dominion would still need more than 2,800 reinforcements to pose a significant threat to a standing fleet of 97,000 vessels. It’s a simple question of maths.
Speak for yourself. YOU have lied repeatedly and deliberately in the face of evidence. PROVE that every Starfleet ship to be decommissioned has been replaced by another ship with the same registry. It happens in real life only if a ship is regarded as famous. The Enterprise received this distinction because she is a famous ship. The Defiant likewise received this honour. Provide a link or some form of proof about what NCC stands for.And yes, Runabouts DO count toward fleet numbers. The link I provided proves this- dismiss it all you want, but it’s a Star Trek Wiki run and maintained by Star Trek fans who have gone to great pains to note this sort of detail.For all we know, cargo ships and transports are given registry numbers, which would greatly enhance the numbers in play without refering to combat vessels.’Valiant’ refers to ONE class of Dominion warship, which was said to be three times as well armed as a Galaxy class ship and these are not common warships in the Dominion fleet. I suggest that you actually WATCH the episodes you refer to, instead of continuing your own fabrications.
You only see what you want to believe.. I’ve already proven everything I said. 🙂
His final reponse on the subject. I’ll take it as an admission on his part that he has no argument left and concedes the point.
As a final thought, one of the denziens of Stardestroyer.net pointed out the registry NCC-97000 actually comes from Star Trek Online, which is not a canon source! (many thanks to StarSword from SD.net for that nugget!).
In short though, the dishonesty on display from Idazmi7 is unbelievable. It is obvious, it is shameless, and it is easily overcome, yet he continues to call everyone else a liar whilst failing to defend his arguments. I suspect he won’t have the guts to unmute me on Youtube, because his fragile ego simply can’t handle anyone posting comments to him unless they agree with him.