If you’ve been following my site and blog, then by now you will know that I’ve engaged in a few scraps with a Youtube user who goes by the name ‘Idazmi7’. Our most recent discussion has been on the subject of warp strafing and long-range combat – and the issues I have with his proclamations of such things being viable tactics.
Prior to actually getting involved in a debate with him, Idazmi7 decided to accuse me of deleting his previous comments on the subject of warp strafing. Naturally, I didn’t take too kindly to such spurious allegations, which I address here. For the record, I have not deleted any comments of his – I don’t need to.
The subject of warp strafing has come up before – but this was to be a more one-on-one debate (it is still going on, but it is starting to go around in circles, so now is the time to present it to everyone).
So, without further ado, let’s see what Idazmi7 has to offer. His comments are in purple, mine are in blue. To begin, I posted the text of my original warp strafing argument. Apologies for the somewhat chaotic nature of the post – Youtube does not lend itself well to copy and paste – if you want to see the discussion in its natural form, check out this video.
There’s an idea Trek vs Wars circles that warp strafing (a ship at warp attacks a sublight target) is a potentially viable tactic for Federation ships to use against their Imperial counterparts. There <em>may </em>be some merit in exploring this idea, <em>but</em>, before doing so, it’s important (as always) to look at the evidence.
There are a number of occasions where this tactic might have proven useful, yet for whatever reason has not been used. Significantly, virtually every battle seen on Star Trek takes place with both vessels either at warp or at sublight speeds. The most damming evidence against warp strafing comes in the form of two <em>Deep Space Nine </em>episodes, <strong>Way of the Warrior </strong>and <strong>A Call to Arms</strong>.
In both episodes, large fleets attack the station with the intent of boarding/capturing it. The Klingons in <strong>Way of the Warrior </strong>want to capture Cardassian leaders holed up on the station, whilst the Dominon want to seize the station for themselves in <strong>A Call to Arms</strong>. On both occasions, their fleets close to point-blank range and slow to sublight speeds prior to engaging the station, and both fleets suffer a number of casualties.
So why, if there is an option to attack at a safe distance, do The Klingons and Dominon close to point-blank range and slow to sublight speeds? One claim is that they did not want to risk destroying the station, but presumably both the Klingons and Dominon would have some idea of what the station could take and react accordingly, adjusting their weapons. In the case of the Dominon, they wanted to prevent a strategically important minefield from being established by the <em>Defiant, </em>which was unshielded and unable to maneuver without risking destruction, yet no attempt was made to fire upon her from warp.
In the <em>Deep Space Nine </em>premiere <strong>Emissary</strong>, we see the fateful battle between the Borg and Federation forces. Given the highly dangerous nature of the Borg, and given their known course, why didn’t either side attempt a warp attack? This happens again in <strong>First Contact</strong>.
Another counter to the idea that warp strafing is a viable option comes from the film <strong>Nemesis</strong>. As the film enters its final act, Shinzon has the <em>Scimitar</em> attack the <em>Enterprise</em> whilst both ships are at warp. The <em>Scimitar</em> disables the <em>Enterprise’s</em> warp drive, forcing her out of warp.
At this point, warp strafing would make perfect sense. The <em>Enterprise</em> was restricted to sublight speeds and the <em>Scimitar</em> could have used warp attacks to make easy and safe attack runs against her. One possible counter is that Shinzon wanted to avoid destroying the <em>Enterprise</em>, but as with previous examples, all he would need to do is adjust his weapons (either yields or rate of fire) accordingly.
Instead, the <em>Scimitar</em> drops <em>out</em> of warp, <em>and</em> closes to point-blank range (so close in fact that, despite her cloak, she is hit repeatedly) and <em>then</em> continues the battle!
Another possible counter is that the Rift they were flying through would interfere with warp drive, but the <em>Enterprise</em> expected to sail straight through it!
So why is this supposedly perfectly valid tactic <em>not</em> used on a number of occasions where it would prove extremely useful?
The most obvious answer would be a targeting issue. A ship moving at warp would is not operating in normal space and could be subject to sensory distortions that affect its ability to target objects in normal space, <em>unless</em> the range is quite small (the greater the distance, the more difficult the feat). Another (related) problem would be that ships are not generally stationary targets, and tend to move, which would throw off targeting solutions.
Of course, this doesn’t explain <strong>Way of the Warrior </strong> or <strong>A Call to Arms</strong>, and the immobile Deep Space Nine. It’s position is known and is not going to change, so why did Klingon and Dominon forces close to within point-blank range (exposing themselves to enemy fire)?
The problem may lie with the interaction of objects at warp with objects in normal space. I’ve seen theories that warp drive uses mass lightening to allow ships to utilise the technology – if this is true, the impact from weapons fired at warp may not carry any greater effect than weapons fired from close range – added to targeting issues, it negates it as a viable option.
Another possibility is that some sort of ECM or jamming technology is being used. It doesn’t tend to be explicitly mentioned in the show (though <strong>Sacrifice of Angels</strong> does mention it), but it remains possible that jamming could make it decidedly difficult to hit even a stationary target.
It might even be a combination of factors. Problems with targeting caused by firing through the boundaries of normal space and subspace, combined with jamming, would explain the absence of warp strafing in the TNG era. It would also explain why warp attacks on sublight vessels occurred on a few occasions in TOS – jamming technology evolved to the point where the tactic simply wasn’t effective any more.
There. A complete explanation as to why warp strafing is not used. I challenge you to keep to the topic.
Deep Space Nine is armed with Photon Torpedoes: which track targets at Warp or Sublight with no issues either way. Warp Field interaction was addressed in the video, As WELL AS MULTIPLE ATTACKS ON SUBLIGHT TARGETS FROM WARP, including an asteroid and Enterprise itself. So you instead of watching it, you are countering what you think was said.
My accusations stand.
An attack launched far enough away by ships at warp would allow for a large salvo of torpedoes to penetrate the station’s defences and bring the shields and weapons down. DS9 isn’t going anywhere and can do nothing to avoid an attack.
Instead, what we have is not only clear references from Damar about being in weapons range when within only point – blank range, but DS9 also doesn’t attempt any ranged attacks of its own, despite your claims of torpedoes tracking targets. The best tracking we have seen from torpedoes is short-range, which further boosts MY position, not yours.
The weapon range of torpedoes is 300,000 kilometers, confirmed, both DS9’s and the attacking ships, and DS9 has thirty automatic torpedo tubes. Also, you tactic doesn’t require Warp: it requires DS9 to have only short-range weapons. Unfortunately for you, it has long ranged tracking warheads. 5000 of them. Put simply, that fleet is going nowhere.
Really depends on your ship, your target, and your objective. Fighting a sublight target at Warp Speed is great for evading incoming attacks, not so much for hitting specific parts of an enemy. (since both targets are maneuvering at very high speeds)
The real problem with Meerkat’s debate is the suppositions he continually makes:
“A ship moving at warp would is not operating in normal space and could be subject to sensory distortions that affect its ability to target objects in normal space”
Which is directly contradicted by literally every use of sensors while at warp in every episode of the series, starting with the very first.
“Problems with targeting caused by firing through the boundaries of normal space and subspace”
Which is never implied in any episode of the series at all, and directly contradicted by several episodes:
1. Balance of Terror (Enterprise warp strafing a ship that doesn’t even have a Warp Drive)
2. Elann of Troyus (Klingon warship straThe range of you speak of is not demonstrated in virtually any onscreen battle. You don’t get to throw out the close-range fights in Best of Both Worlds, Emmisary, Gambit, Way of the Warrior, A Call to Arms, Sacrifice of Angels, Tears of the Prophets, and many more, in favour of one episode where they state a range.
In fact, Tears of the Prophets is another good example of where warp strafing should have been used if it was an option. They were going up against orbital weapons platforms that were potentially very dangerous, but they also knew they were inactive. Torpedoes fired from warp would have proven effective and placed the allied fleet at no risk. Instead, they closed to near point-blank range (yet again) to engage stationary targets.
This is also the case in The Die is Cast, and in this case, whilst attacking a planet. Once again, if warp strafing were an option, they would have taken it – their mission there was to wipe out the Founders – they had no need to close to within such close range of the planet, but they did so anyway. The planet wasn’t going anywhere and a planet is obviously a huge target, yet they weren’t confident enough to fire safely from warp, at a great distance.fing the crippled Enterprise)
3. The Ultimate Computer (Enterprise strafes an ore freighter that is clearly at sublight speed) If there were ANY problems of that sort, they’d reveal themselves at least once, but they do not.
His debate seems to be “They must have targeting issues when shooting at targets not at warp, so here is why” but he hasn’t at all proven that there are any such issues.
The range of you speak of is not demonstrated in virtually any onscreen battle. You don’t get to throw out the close-range fights in Best of Both Worlds, Emmisary, Gambit, Way of the Warrior, A Call to Arms, Sacrifice of Angels, Tears of the Prophets, and many more, in favour of one episode where they state a range.
In fact, Tears of the Prophets is another good example of where warp strafing should have been used if it was an option. They were going up against orbital weapons platforms that were potentially very dangerous, but they also knew they were inactive. Torpedoes fired from warp would have proven effective and placed the allied fleet at no risk. Instead, they closed to near point-blank range (yet again) to engage stationary targets.
This is also the case in The Die is Cast, and in this case, whilst attacking a planet. Once again, if warp strafing were an option, they would have taken it – their mission there was to wipe out the Founders – they had no need to close to within such close range of the planet, but they did so anyway. The planet wasn’t going anywhere and a planet is obviously a huge target, yet they weren’t confident enough to fire safely from warp, at a great distance.
This in some respects only adds fuel for my arguments as to why warp strafing isn’t used. They have issues with targeting – Idazmi7 is actually correct when he points out interference between sublight and subspace isn’t directly mentioned, but it remains viable. The timing is crucial, you’re asking a weapon’s onboard targeting system to make adjustments whilst traveling at warp and aiming at a sublight target, and the window may only be a few seconds – if the targeting is out by even 1%, you’ll miss, and miss quite wildly.
This would explain why it’s not used – as the warp engines of ships in the TNG era have become more powerful and sophisticated, it’s created problems for warp targeting of sublight objects. How else can it be explained that ships drop to sublight, at ranges of only a few kilometres from their targets, exposing themselves to great risk? No commander would do that unless they had no other option.
“The range of you speak of is not demonstrated in virtually any onscreen battle. You don’t get to throw out the close-range fights”
1. Balance of Terror – the Enterprise is chased for over a minute at maximum Warp by a Romulan Plasma Torpedo.
2. The Changeling – the Enterprise hits a 2 meter wide target from 90,000 kilometers away with a photon torpedo.
3.Journey to Babel – the Enterprise hit an Orion ship with phasers from 75,000 kilometers.
4. The Deadly Years – Romulan ships are stated to have a 100,000 kilometer weapon range.
5. Obsession – the Enterprise I said to be “out of range” of a target 0.04 lightyears away. (378,000,000,000 kilometers)
6. Patterns of Force – the Enterprise hit a missile 2000 kilometers away with phasers.
7. A Matter of Honor – a Klingon captain orders his weapons officer to hold fire until 40,000 kilometers from the target.
8. The Wounded – the Phoenix engages a Cardassian Warship at 300,000 kilometers.
9. The Search, Part 1 – 100,000 kilometers is said to be “well within” the range of a Dominion Bugship.
10. Equinox, Part 2 – Voyager fires on Equinox from 30,000 kilometers.
I trust I have made my point.
In addition, The Die is Cast gives no reason for the fleet to be at Warp at all: the planet had no weapons at all, so there was nothing to dodge. (or so they thought)
From films: The Wrath of Khan, The Search for Spock, The Undiscovered Country, Generations, First Contact, Insurrection, Nemesis – all close range.
From TNG: The Arsenal of Freedom, Q Who, Yesterdays Enterprise, Tin Man, The Best of Both Worlds, Conundrum.
From DS9: Emissary, The Jem’Hadar, The Search (which despite statements, shows us the combat on screen and shows the range to be far smaller), Paradise Lost, The Die is Cast (the Jem’Hadar attack on the fleet), Way of the Warrior, The Maquis, Defiant, Indiscretion, Starship Down, Rules of Engagement, Shattered Mirror, Call to Arms, Sons and Daughters, Sacrifice of Angels, Valiant, Tears of the Prophets, Treachery Faith and the Great River, Once more unto the Breach, The Siege of AR-558, The Changing Face of Evil, What you Leave Behind.
From VOY: Caretaker, Scorpion, Dark Frontier, Night, Prototype, Dreadnought, Basics, Year of Hell, Hunters, Timeless, Think Tank, Equinox (the visuals clearly show the ships to be close to each other), Unimatrix Zero, Flesh and Blood, Endgame.
Prudence. A smart commander will not expose their forces to risk unless absolutely necessary. They could not have been absolutely certain the planet had no defences, yet they not only did not use warp strafing (which would have inflicted more damage anyway), but closed to a lot closer than 300,000km to attack. They were limited by something – the capabilities of their vessels.
The same goes for Way of the Warrior and Call to Arms. In both cases, the attacking fleets had to get right close to the station, pretty much ensuring they would suffer casualties, and a lot of them at that.
Once again, no commander would expose their fleet to more danger than necessary, yet once again, they closed to point-blank range.
Do you understand why this is yet? Or why they did so in all the other episodes and films I listed? They did so because they HAD to. They were operating within the confines of what their ships and weapons are capable of.
Those are just the examples I know of, that ALL depict combat at short ranges – so well done for providing other examples to support your claims (though some of are stated ranges and not actually observed), but as you will see, there are a great many more examples to back up my position. Curiously, warp strafing doesn’t come up in any of those examples either.
The issue is that warp strafing is not used against a variety of targets across a variety of situations from the TNG era onwards. It is not used in one-on-one ship combat. It is not used in fleet engagements. It is not used against stationary targets. It isn’t even discussed as an idea. Therefore it would seem SOMETHING is limiting it as an option.
So, my theory is that it’s a targeting issue, perhaps the result of problems for sensors caused by the more powerful warp fields of 24th century ships. After all, the examples you and Idazmi7 cite are from TOS.
It might be due to jamming as well.
Idazmi7, the absence of long-range combat and warp strafing from TNG onwards cannot be ignored. If they’re repeatedly not demonstrating these capabilities, it must be because they are limited by something. The weight of evidence is clearly against warp strafing and long ranges.
Several of my references are from TNG. 🙂
You didn’t watch my video. In addition, technology does not magically disappear: if they had Warp Strafing and Long Range Combat in TOS, they do in TNG.
You are correct, there are a couple of references to TNG. There are far many more examples I have presented that present short range combat. They have had numerous opportunities throughout those numerous examples to demonstrate warp strafing yet don’t – you have yet to present any rationalisation was to why this is.
The most likely answer (as I have already given to Kare) is problems with accuracy.
Doesn’t matter. As I already said Meerkat, the mere existence of short range fights or fights lacking warp does not make the weapon range become shorter, or Warp Combat impossible, any more than the use of a gun at short range makes it become a knife.
“The planet isn’t going anywhere. They could fire from any distance, at any speed, giving themselves any possible firing window they needed.”
You are refusing to acknowledge the need for the cloaking devices, as if all planets are naturally undefended. That is ludicrous.
“Even the Klingons aren’t so completely stupid as to sacrifice lives needlessly”
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=18hrzz-eGCI
Yeah… right. And the Dominion makes a new batch of troops every three days, so I doubt it would be a problem for them at all.
“Though in fact the risk factor is another argument against the widespread use of warp strafing – it would make sense that they cannot be sure of their accuracy at long distances and at warp.”
Wasn’t a problem against a totally cloaked Romulan Bird of Prey in Balance of Terror. I’d imagine that shooting uncloaked ships would be far easier.
“It is highly unlikely that warp strafing or long-range combat – if either conferred some sort of advantage – would be ignored so frequently, unless something is in fact limiting their usefulness.”
It’s called “Budget” and “visibility to the audience”. You will notice a direct increase in sublight combat around the time that visual effects became more practical.
“Idazmi7 has so far not deigned to comment on the glaring misses of large and slow ships by DS9’s weapons in ‘Way of the Warrior’ and ‘Call to Arms’, and those are but two examples out of many.”
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uDsBtPKhCos
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aZjhyAw3ODk
Show me this “many” you speak of, and perhaps I will decide to take that seriously, what with scenes like this. I could easily say that DS9 was simply shooting at ships that were in the far distance, that you cannot see. Especially since they always fire multiple shots at the same exact patch of supposedly empty space in ‘Way of the Warrior.’
You can’t point to what is a very small minority of examples and say they need to be taken as the most important evidence for range. If the weight of evidence is in favour of short ranges and sublight combat, then the onus is very much on you to explain why you feel your position is correct, despite the evidence.
You state I need to conclusively prove my point about accuracy. The episodes I have discussed are the proof. In ‘Call to Arms’, the Damar states at one stage that they’ll be in weapons range in one minute. The Dominion fleet then engages the station and is clearly within a range of a few KM at most, as demonstrated by the battle that we see. We therefore have visuals supported by dialogue that confirm this battle was fought at close range.
I refer to time 3.25 in the video. The Dominion fleet is within visual range of the station and Damar hasn’t even referred to being in range yet. At 4.00, the station misses Dukat’s mammoth attack cruiser with one of two torpedoes heading for it.
At around the 4.11 mark to around 4.13, the Dominion flagship is slowly turning yet the station again manages to miss.
Keep in mind that this video doesn’t show the moment Dominion attack ships are sailing toward the station in a straight line and yet, the station can only manage to hit one of them.
We also have Sacrifice of Angels.
At around 0.55 of this video (https://youtu.be/yJWZ5B3F94Q
) some of the gently manoeuvring fighters are completely missed at point-blank range by the Cardassians. This happens again at around the 1.00 mark.
The 1.50 mark. The Defiant is flying in a straight line, a few KM from the pursuing attack ships, which repeatedly miss.
These misses continue to around 1.55.
Keep in mind these are only two examples thus far. I can happily provide more.
