Size matters right? Well, this next page is all about size.
The United Federation of Planets, proper, is composed of more than 150 member planets, spread out across 10,000 light years of the Milky Way Galaxy. This is a contiguous volume of space, stretching to the outer edges of the galaxy. Each of these 150+ major worlds contribute their own worlds to the organization. This allows the UFP to remain just that: a Federation. They maintain their own individual governmental standards, while adhering to tenants set down by the Federation. This eliminates micromanagement, and allows a more efficient method of government, without direct intervention on the UFP’s part. While there are countless colony worlds, they are not counted as members, unless they successfully petition the Federation Council for such political recognition. In many instances, this would be considered illegal; many governments, if not most, do not take very kindly to their colonies seceding from them to declare their independence. In any event, membership is predicated upon a number of factors, such as the existence of a unified planetary government, and the absence of caste-based social systems.
I’m not too sure where Virus-X is getting his information from, but this paragraph is not too objectionable. There are member worlds and colonies, and it’s possible the Federation may have its own, directly controlled colonies. Next, Virus-X is quoting Michael Wong of SD.net, whose text is in green:
Imperial threat assessment on size
Size
The Federation is an extremely small organization. While the Empire contains millions of member systems, the Federation contains only 150 member systems. While the Empire spans a galaxy, the Federation spans a mere 8000 light years. This information comes direct from Captain Picard, in STFC:
Lily: “How many planets are in the Federation?”
Picard: “Over one hundred and fifty. Spread across eight thousand light years.”A strict interpretation of this quote would be that the Federation has a sum total of roughly 150 planets under its direct control, including each and every insignificant outpost or low-population colony in its entire territory. However, this is doubtful. It is more likely that Picard is referring only to major planets. We know that the Federation is replete with systems that contain only a few hundred or few thousand colonists, and it is highly doubtful that Picard was including all of those insignificant systems when he stated his figure of 150 planets. We can conclude that the Federation probably has hundreds or perhaps even thousands of small colonies and outposts scattered throughout its territory, with roughly 150 planets that have populations numbering in the billions. …
From the canon novelization of Star Wars Episode IV: A New Hope, softcover pg. 116: “This station is the final link in the new-forged Imperial chain which will bind the million systems of the Galactic Empire together once and for all.” Spoken by Grand Moff Tarkin. …
The above quotes allow us to derive several conclusions:
- The ANH quote made it clear, back in 1977, that the Empire has at least one million star systems under its direct control. This allows us to place a lower limit on the size of the Empire, with the added benefit that it comes from a canon source rather than an official source. Federation cultist denials of Imperial size are obviously based on ignorance of the oldest, most canon source there is.
- The TOTBH quote describes the size of the galaxy, which is significantly larger than the Milky Way galaxy in which the Federation resides. Ludicrous Federation cultist claims about a super-small Imperial galaxy are obviously invalid.
- The TOTBH quote also describes more than 20 million intelligent species, which is consistent with an organization containing millions of star systems (particularly when most of those star systems are colonized by humans). We saw only a handful of species in ANH, TESB, and ROTJ- a miniscule fraction of the 20 million species described here, using a miniscule fraction of the 6 million forms of communication known to C3PO. This indicates that ANH, TESB, and ROTJ depict only a tiny portion of the vast territory of the Empire.
- The DE quote indicates that the number of inhabited star systems is actually greater than twelve million. However, it must be noted that many of these star systems are probably small outposts rather than full member systems, like the one million systems mentioned in the ANH novelization.
There is some debate as to where the so-called “Unknown Regions” are located. The Unknown Regions were mentioned in Heir to the Empire among other sources, and they are a region of space which has been roughly mapped (so that the locations of stars etc. are known) but not thoroughly explored. Some claim that the Unknown Regions constitute one or more “pie-shaped” quadrants of the galaxy, but there is no reason why anyone with the technology to travel from the core to the outer rim would always do so in one quadrant. It is more likely that the Unknown Regions are either a poorly explored area that is often skipped over by travelers, or the galactic halo- the diffuse region of stars and globular clusters which exist outside of the thicker regions of the galactic disc. This halo would be inconvenient to settle because of the dispersion, which would explain why no one ever bothered exploring it in 25,000 years (even though the Out Bound project was created to explore other galaxies).
Once again I should point out that when all this was all written the Expanded Universe (EU) was considered part of the story of Star Wars. This is the approach of Virus-X and Wong and reflective of the time these pages were written. It is therefore the approach I take in addressing what Virus-X has said.
Section 31 Disinformation on Size
Through the efforts of Section 31, the potential enemies of the UFP in the Galactic Empire have been fed a large amount of dysinformation, and Section 31 penetration into the governments of both the New Republic, the New Empire and Yuuzhan Vong have revealed it to have had it’s desired effect. The Imperial forces (which have been beaten down to virtually nothing by their conflicts with the former terrorists that formed the New Republic) have almost completely diminished their offensive and defensive capabilities so badly, elements of their government have fallen into desperation, and seek to conquer others to replenish their massive losses. Yuuzhan Vong forces are being cautious, but they, too, seem eager to attempt to invade and conquer in the name of their barbaric and uncivilized ‘religion’. The New Republic government seems ready to implode, any day now. Numerous unscrupulous politicians have begun taking root, including their own president, and their unbridled ambition could lead to an attempt to conquer the Milky Way galaxy, in order to find a way to stave off the Yuuzhan Vong destroyers, or at least to escape beyond their enemies’ reach. Below are some of the examples of the elements of dysinformation that have been fed to potential Threat forces.
Once again we are presented with the desire to present the Empire circa a time where it’s been heavily weakened. In the Legends EU the Empire splintered following the Emperor’s death, and the New Republic’s rise further damaged the Empire. What’s made clear is that at the Empire’s height, circa a canon source (the novelisation of A New Hope), it controlled a million star systems. This dwarfs the Federation’s resources, so Virus-X has to set up a scenario where the Empire doesn’t have the same holdings.
Size
The Federation is an extremely small organization. While the Empire contains millions of member systems, the Federation contains only 150 member systems. While the Empire spans a galaxy, the Federation spans a mere 8000 light years. This information comes direct from Captain Picard, in STFC:
Lily: “How many planets are in the Federation?”
Picard: “Over one hundred and fifty. Spread across eight thousand light years.”A strict interpretation of this quote would be that the Federation has a sum total of roughly 150 planets under its direct control, including each and every insignificant outpost or low-population colony in its entire territory. However, this is doubtful. It is more likely that Picard is referring only to major planets. We know that the Federation is replete with systems that contain only a few hundred or few thousand colonists, and it is highly doubtful that Picard was including all of those insignificant systems when he stated his figure of 150 planets. We can conclude that the Federation probably has hundreds or perhaps even thousands of small colonies and outposts scattered throughout its territory, with roughly 150 planets that have populations numbering in the billions.
The ease with which enemy forces were fooled is astonishing, and indicative of a lack of serious intelligence capabilities and competence, certainly, and the released number of 150 was a complete absurdity from Starfleet Intelligence that we did not think they would fall for. The laughably small number of 150 was chosen, I have found out, by some counterintelligence agent with an unhealthy fetish for Earth trivia and history, and hence chose the approximate number of old Earth nations that were involved in the first (and unsuccessful) incarnation of the United Nations government.
Here Virus-X ignores canon information in favour of non-canon resources. Captain Picard’s statement is from the movie Star Trek First Contact and as Mike Wong surmises, he is likely referring to member worlds. This obviously leaves room for colonies, but doesn’t change the detail that 150 member worlds is what we’re looking at, along with the size of Federation space. Referring to the opening paragraph, this draws into question where Virus-X gets his 10,000 light year figure from.
“There is no definitive list of members in the Federation, since the show’s writers need the freedom to invent new members as specific stories require. The 150-member figure was deliberately chosen to approximate the members in Earth’s present United Nations.”
-The Star Trek Encyclopedia: A Reference Guide to the Future (Updated & Expanded Edition), by Michael Okuda and Denise Okuda, with Debbie Mirek; page 536.
The United Federation of Planets is in firm control over a significant portion of the Alpha Quadrant and a significant portion of Beta Quadrant, almost completely enveloping the Romulan Star Empire (-Star Trek Star Charts, the Complete Atlas of Star Trek; Alpha Quadrant, pg.: 56. Written & Illustrated by Geoffrey Mandel. Contributors: Doug Drexler, Tim Earls, Larry Nemeck & Christian Ruhl. Technical Advisors: Andre Bormanis, Michael Okuda, Timo Saloniemi & Rick Sternbach.). When referring to a galaxy of over 100,000,000,000 star systems, that would mean that, perhaps, over 15 billion star systems are under the United Federation of Planets’ aegis. This does not take into account the fact that membership in the United Federation of Planets requires the possession of FTL travel technologies. These are not mere ‘colonies’ that the member nations have, but entire interstellar civilizations, with worlds of their own to manage. Vulcan, for example, in the pre-UFP era, had countless planets colonized across their spatial territorial holdings, abutting those of such other races as the Andorians. (-Star Trek: Enterprise)
With the development of warp drive, Earth began creating it’s own interstellar civilization. When the UFP finally came into being in the year 2161, this was the blending together of the interstellar civilizations of the original signatories: Earth, Vulcan, Andor and Tellar, the territories of which continue to expand, to this very day.
Writer’s Note: Consultation of the map provided in the TV Guide Collectors’ Edition: Star Trek: Four Generations of Stars, Stories and Strange New Worlds will shed further light on the actual size of the territorial holdings of the United Federation of Planets, and it’s major neighbors, the Klingon Empire, Romulan Star Empire and the Cardassian Union.
However, in an attempt to shed a stronger, more clear, revealing light on the sheer, utter and incontrovertible ignorance of the tertiary junior adjutant’s statement of: “We can conclude that the Federation probably has hundreds or perhaps even thousands of small colonies and outposts scattered throughout its territory, with roughly 150 planets that have populations numbering in the billions.”, I shall quote another data source, describing some of the individual governments of the United Federation of Planets:
A series of non-canon sources don’t override Picard’s statement. Therefore much of the above is pure speculation. Virus-X goes on to list Federation worlds mentioned in these non-canon materials, but ultimately none of it is relevant.
Earth (Sol III)
Official Name: United Earth (founded 2113)
Delta (Delta IV)
Official Name: Deltan Union
Deneb V (Deneb Kaitos V)
Official Name: Commonwealth of Denebia
Betazed (Beta Zeta V)
Official Name: Fifth House of Betazed
Trill (Trillus Prime)
Official Name: Trill Symbiosis
Capella
Official Name: Ten Tribes of Capella
Vulcan (40 Eridani A)
Official Name: Confederacy of Surak
Andoria (Procyon VIII)
Official Name: Andorian Empire
Rigel VI (Beta Rigel VI)
Official Name: United Rigel Colonies
Rigel X (Beta Rigel X)
Official Name: United Rigel Colonies
Ardana (Mu Leonis A III)
Official Name: Plutocracy of Ardana
Coridan (Coridan III)
Official Name: People’s Republic of Coridan
Menk (Valakis VI)
Official Name: Commonwealth of Menk and Valakis
Risa (Episilon Ceti B II)
Official Name: Risan Hedony
-Star Trek Star Charts, the Complete Atlas of Star Trek; Alpha Quadrant, pgs.: 32-33, 52-53. Written & Illustrated by Geoffrey Mandel. Contributors: Doug Drexler, Tim Earls, Larry Nemeck & Christian Ruhl. Technical Advisors: Andre Bormanis, Michael Okuda, Timo Saloniemi & Rick Sternbach.
Though the names of most governments are grandiose, with such designations as “united”, “empire”, “plutocracy”, “commonwealth”, etc., it is more than likely that these worlds number into the thousands, and the high thousands, at that. This is not a loose conglomeration of planets, but entire interstellar civilizations, all operating under a single aegis. Some of those member worlds include:
|
|
|
|
-Star Trek Star Charts, The Complete Atlas of Star Trek, United Federation of Planets I (pullout). Written & Illustrated by Geoffrey Mandel. Contributors: Doug Drexler, Tim Earls, Larry Nemeck & Christian Ruhl. Technical Advisors: Andre Bormanis, Michael Okuda, Timo Saloniemi & Rick Sternbach.
With in the cases of such obvious exceptions as colony worlds (at least to a degree), these are all separate interstellar civilizations with their own territorial holdings. However, in the cases of colony worlds, there is nothing prohibiting emancipated colonies from acquiring territorial holdings of their own, whether by purchase, contract, exploration, or any other means. So, as this document will point out, the tertiary junior adjutant is full of crap, and tries to belittle every United Federation of Planets aspect, due to the fact that it represents one of his greatest, darkest fears: a superior civilization that will not bow down to the ‘Galactic’ Empire (kind of like the Ewoks).
It may well be that some member worlds have their own colonies – equally, some may not. Ultimately, it is speculation driven by the need to greatly inflate Federation holdings, using inadmissible material, and therefore irrelevant.
From the canon novelization of Star Wars Episode IV: A New Hope, softcover pg. 116: “This station is the final link in the new-forged Imperial chain which will bind the million systems of the Galactic Empire together once and for all.” Spoken by Grand Moff Tarkin.
The above quotes allow us to derive several conclusions:
The ANH quote made it clear, back in 1977, that the Empire has at least one million star systems under its direct control. This allows us to place a lower limit on the size of the Empire, with the added benefit that it comes from a canon source rather than an official source. Federation cultist denials of Imperial size are obviously based on ignorance of the oldest, most canon source there is.
And now, the newest updates on the size of the so-called ‘Galactic’ Empire, for those that live in the present day, and not 25+ years ago:
“A thousand systems left, out of an Empire that had once spanned a million.”
-Star Wars: “Specter of the Past“, page: 7. Written by Timothy Zahn; published by Bantam Spectra, 1997.
Again, this is more or less an open admission that the Federation can’t contend with an Empire at its height, so it therefore has to be watered down.
The TOTBH quote describes the size of the galaxy, which is significantly larger than the Milky Way galaxy in which the Federation resides. Ludicrous Federation cultist claims about a super-small Imperial galaxy are obviously invalid.
Writer’s Note: The phrase: “…significantly larger than the Milky Way galaxy…” has no scientific meaning, of which I am aware. Is it some sort of new, Canadian metric measurement? From what I’ve read in sources like Star Wars: the Essential Guide to Planets and Moons, it is only described as being larger than 100,000 light years. Our galaxy may be larger than 100,000 light years. 100,000 Light years is nothing more than an estimate by people that lack the technology to really go out and check, conclusively. Then, let’s not forget that the edges of the galaxy are ‘wispy’, and difficult to get an agreeable definite boundary on. Just as the estimate of the galaxy having about 100 billion stars. If the Star Wars galaxy has “…400 billion stars…” stars, this does not make it necessarily “…larger…”, just more dense. For a person that claims to be smarter than anyone that tries to dispute his unfounded claims, and who is supposed to be such a ‘scientific’ debater, he’s sure quick to throw science out the window every time it becomes convenient to for his argument.
I’m not immediately sure what TOTBH is – I’m guessing it’s either an EU novel or some other official Star Wars material. At any rate, under the rules of the time, such material counted toward the official continuity of Star Wars, so it was therefore valid. If this source stated it was a large galaxy with 400 billion stars, then so be it. It is up to Virus-X to present any evidence to the contrary, and he fails to do so.
The TOTBH quote also describes more than 20 million intelligent species, which is consistent with an organization containing millions of star systems (particularly when most of those star systems are colonized by humans). We saw only a handful of species in ANH, TESB, and ROTJ- a miniscule fraction of the 20 million species described here, using a miniscule fraction of the 6 million forms of communication known to C3PO. This indicates that ANH, TESB, and ROTJ depict only a tiny portion of the vast territory of the Empire.
And then we have the tertiary junior adjutant’s own contradictory oral diarrhea: “Our galaxy contains 400 billion stars, over 100 billion of which have been mapped. It also contains at least 12 million inhabited star systems. The breadth and width of our territory covers the entire galaxy, although there are literally billions of star systems which have yet to be explored.” Where, in either the previous or above statement, does it say how many of those “…20 million intelligent species…” were actually subjects of either the Galactic Republic, or the ‘Galactic’ Empire? How many of those indigenous “…least 12 million inhabited star systems…” are in Imperial space? Where does it say that all “…of the 6 million forms of communication known to C3PO…” robot are spoken by beings indigenous to either the Galactic Republic or the ‘Galactic’ Empire? There are over 6 billion people living on the planet Earth, around the early 21st century, and the United States is the most powerful country in the world, bar none. However, does that automatically mean that all those 6 billion belonged to the United States as citizens? Does that mean all 200+ nations of the world were merely states of the United States of America? Was the United Nations an administrative organ of the United States Department of State, for dealing with the other, lesser nations? Going by the tertiary junior adjutant’s silly non-logic, the answer would be a resounding “yes”.
There is no contradiction at work. Mike never claims the Empire controls every star system within its borders – with millions of systems this is highly unlikely. The existence of these systems is merely within Imperial space, with a million systems controlled by the Empire. It’s entirely possible that C3PO would have picked up upon languages from outside Imperial-controlled worlds, owing to the movement of beings across the galaxy, plus his communication skills included computer languages, which may well vary too. All in all, Virus-X’s argument here is nitpicky and doesn’t even make sense.
The DE quote indicates that the number of inhabited star systems is actually greater than twelve million. However, it must be noted that many of these star systems are probably small outposts rather than full member systems, like the one million systems mentioned in the ANH novelization.
Oh, and so now the tertiary junior adjutant is an expert on all 12,000,000 inhabited star systems that he’s never seen any depiction of, anywhere? Now, without presenting a shred of evidence to support his stupid claim, he automatically knows that these 12,000,000 inhabited star systems in question couldn’t possibly be anything other than “…small outposts rather than full member systems, like the one million systems mentioned in the ANH novelization.” The arrogant tertiary junior adjutant doesn’t even know who those 12,000,000 star systems belong to, much less their political status. Bring evidence, or shut up. Back on Earth, we have an old saying: “$^*%, or get off the pot.”
I’m not sure where Mike claims to be an expert on every last system. He claims many systems may be small outposts rather than major worlds, and this makes sense, but it’s not claimed as an outright fact. Therefore, Virus-X’s ‘rebuttal’ of this claim is irrelevant.
There is some debate as to where the so-called “Unknown Regions” are located. The Unknown Regions were mentioned in Heir to the Empire among other sources, and they are a region of space which has been roughly mapped (so that the locations of stars etc. are known) but not thoroughly explored. Some claim that the Unknown Regions constitute one or more “pie-shaped” quadrants of the galaxy, but there is no reason why anyone with the technology to travel from the core to the outer rim would always do so in one quadrant. It is more likely that the Unknown Regions are either a poorly explored area that is often skipped over by travelers, or the galactic halo- the diffuse region of stars and globular clusters which exist outside of the thicker regions of the galactic disc. This halo would be inconvenient to settle because of the dispersion, which would explain why no one ever bothered exploring it in 25,000 years (even though the Out Bound project was created to explore other galaxies).
The “Unknown Regions” are called the “Unknown Regions” because they are just that: UNKNOWN. If they were partially mapped, they wouldn’t be “unknown” regions, would they? The failure of the rising and falling civilizations to penetrate that area (and others like it, such as “Wild Space”) is their own, and a result of their own incompetence. The Imperial ineptitude, undoubtedly, stems from such arrogant and brainless statements as: “Because the Star Wars Galactic civilization completed its understanding of physics eons ago during the era of the decadent Old Republic, we no longer equip our ships with extensive scientific data-gathering arrays like the ones on Federation starships.” Furthermore, from the map of the Star Wars galaxy, the “Unknown Regions” are pretty substantial, taking up, perhaps, a third of the galaxy’s volume. Look at the map. In either event, the tertiary junior adjutant tries everything to justify this failure through pathetic rationalizations (“…This halo would be inconvenient to settle because of the dispersion, which would explain why no one ever bothered exploring it in 25,000 years (even though the Out Bound project was created to explore other galaxies).“), then, in the next breath, shows himself to be nothing more than a poor liar (“…there is no reason why anyone with the technology to travel from the core to the outer rim would always do so in one quadrant.“). There is no excuse why a civilization that’s had FTL propulsion of a sufficient magnitude could not have explored virtually the entirety of the galaxy. This doesn’t necessarily mean full colonization, but, considering that the tertiary junior adjutant claims there are “…at least 12 million inhabited star systems …” elsewhere in this document, the combined efforts of the Galactic Republic, ‘Galactic’ Empire and New Republic, coupled with those of those other civilizations such as the Tion Hegemony’s Tion Cluster, the Kathol Sector, Hutt Space, the Hapes Cluster, Ssi-Ruuk Star Cluster, the Koornacht Cluster of the Yevethan species, Hapes Cluster, etc., and the “…at least 12 million inhabited star systems…” should’ve been enough to have the entirety of the galaxy claimed in at least someone’s name. There should be no “Unexplored Regions”, nor “Wild Space”. In fact, with all those other names on the galactic list, this is additional evidence that the ‘Galactic’ Empire never controlled the entire galaxy. (-Star Wars Role Playing Game, by Bill Slavicsek, Andy Collins and JD Walker; page 171. Published November 2000 by Wizards of the Coast. Ó Lucasfilm Ltd. & Ô All rights reserved. Used under authorization. Lucas Licensing Editors: Ben Harper, Sue Rostoni
Both the Legends EU and the new Disney canon refer to the Unknown Regions as being full of hyperspace disturbances and other phenomena that made travelling the region dangerous. This didn’t make it impossible, but a risk/benefit analysis meant it was largely ignored, given the problems with traversing the region. Given the size and scale of the Empire’s holdings, there was no great need to travel there anyway, though in both the Legends material and the new material, the Unknown Regions serve as the home of the Chiss (think Grand Admiral Thrawn) and over time the region would come to be mapped, in fact fairly quickly, with Thrawn leading efforts to subjugate large areas of the region for the Empire. Prior to the death of the Emperor and the subsequent scramble for power, there was no need to make the effort.
Ah, and the little Outbound Project. It’s amazing how much pride the junior adjutant has in a project that was an utter and complete failure, isn’t it? It was a blatant failure, and they never put up the resources to try it, again. Now, decades later, they still haven’t a single thought of trying it, again. The New Republic can’t blame the Empire, because the Empire’s nothing more than a stupid little street gang, right about now. The Empire can’t blame it on diverting resources on fighting off the anti-Imperial guerilla factions of the Alliance to Restore the Republic. Obviously, neither of them have the resources or scientific knowledge to make it work, which isn’t surprising, considering the fact that they can’t even explore their own galaxy, so why should they even bother with others. The New Republic is always being described as virtually dirt-poor in every report I pick up, and the New Empire, beaten down to virtually nothing. The Imperial forces, once feared (though why, I don’t know) throughout a large port of the galaxy (though not in the Unknown Regions), are now naught more than a bad military joke of wide renown.
They can spread stories about a new emperor “Solo” all they want; they can spread propaganda about controlling their entire galaxy to their collective hearts’ content. However, it makes no difference. On Earth, we’ve an old saying: “They don’t have a pot to piss in, nor a window throw it out of“. Oh, well, look at it this way: had the Outbound Project succeeded, everybody involved probably would’ve been killed, anyway. They’d have just ended up right in the arms of the Yuuzhan Vong; and we see how effective they are against the Yuuzhan Vong, right about now.
I’m struggling to find anything accurate about the above. The Outbound Project didn’t fail because of technical reasons but because of sabotage. It’s hardly surprising that it wasn’t attempted again, given the near-constant state of war the galaxy found itself in. This doesn’t mean they couldn’t try again if they wanted to – it’s just not a priority.
