I have a feeling that one or two people will take a fair bit of an interest in this post, and it will be fascinating to see how they respond. On my web travels, I found a post by one ‘Silence of Mind’, someone I’ve encountered before, via other people’s sites. SoM is a devout Christian, and he has written quite extensively about atheism, usually in derogatory terms. His latest post is no exception. In his post, SoM takes aim at an article by one David Madison, over at Debunking Christianity. Quotes from Mr Madison shall be in blue, quotes from SoM shall be in purple.
Speech is how human beings express their heart, mind and soul. Below is an example of a prominent atheist expressing his profound idiocy through the written word. This prominent atheist was a devout Christian until he entered a masters degree program on religion.
There are three features of Bible god that spoil Christian theology: (1) This god behaves like a furious toddler when it doesn’t get its way. (2) This god keeps a close watch on everything that every person does, says, and even thinks—or so plenty of Bible texts claim. I suspect that many of the devout don’t live as if this is true. (3) This furious toddler gets upset over trivia, instead of over great moral issues. Barker illustrates this in a major section of his essay.
It is the atheist who is the furious toddler. One need not be Jew or Christian to appreciate the depth and breadth of biblical literature, or the profound, prolonged influence the Bible has had on the world via Christian Western Civilization.
Hmm, I have to consider whether that influence has always been good. You need only look at the stranglehold evangelicals have on the GOP, to see how ugly certain forms of Christianity can be to non-believers (or for that matter, other Christians). Historically, Christian conflict caused a lot of strife and death across Europe (it is a significant factor behind why so many people fled Europe for the Americas).
Let’s go through the atheist’s three statements.
- This god behaves like a furious toddler when it doesn’t get its way.
The idiocy expressed here is that all powerful God could be thwarted by an ancient tribe of barbarian Canaanites. Because idiocy is the mind on atheism, the atheists does not have the intellectual capacity to absorb and contemplate the biblical text in search of the truth. Discovering the truth takes an agile, determined mind.
I dare say the God of the Old Testament could be considered of poor behaviour for a number of reasons. Here, I’ll be quoting from Michael Wong’s excellent Creation Theory site, that has listed a number of horrific acts attributed to God. Such text will be in green. Here, Mr Wong is referring to Leviticus, though demonstrations of Biblical savagery are not limited to Leviticus.
This is the mother of all the Biblical rulebooks. The entire Book of Leviticus is filled with rules, most of which cannot be quoted here because of their sheer bulk. The first nine chapters are full of rules governing the bloody animal sacrifices required by God, in which animals are to be cut to pieces, their bloody guts are to be waved around in the air, and their blood is to be sprinkled upon the people. Leviticus 13-15 contain instructions regarding leprosy, house mildew, and personal hygiene (you would think that an omniscient being would have better remedies for such problems than animal sacrifice, but I digress). In any case, apart from all this weirdness and animal cruelty, Leviticus contains many ridiculously harsh rules for humans.
Leviticus 10:1-2 (God kills Aaron’s sons for making the victimless crime of making “unauthorized fire”).
Aaron’s sons Nadab and Abihu took their censers, put fire in them and added incense; and they offered unauthorized fire before the LORD, contrary to his command. So fire came out from the presence of the LORD and consumed them, and they died before the LORD.
Leviticus 10:6 (If the priests commit the victimless crime of tearing their clothes or letting their hair become “unkempt”, God will kill them. Note that this is Moses speaking rather than God, but if you read it in context, you will see that Moses and God are speaking in turns, laying out the covenant that God has already given to Moses. Obviously, if Moses contradicted God’s covenant at some point, it seems likely that something bad would have happened. Therefore, Moses’ statements in the Book of Leviticus are presumably an accurate testimony of God’s instructions to him on the mountain)
Then Moses said to Aaron and his sons Eleazar and Ithamar, “Do not let your hair become unkempt, and do not tear your clothes, or you will die and the LORD will be angry with the whole community.
Leviticus 20:9 (And people wonder why parents were such harsh disciplinarians back in the puritan “Good Old Days” of strong religion).
If anyone curses his father or mother, he must be put to death.
Leviticus 20:10 (Kill all adulterers. It’s bad to cheat on your spouse, but is it really so bad that it deserves the death penalty?)
If a man commits adultery with another man’s wife–with the wife of his neighbor–both the adulterer and the adulteress must be put to death.
Leviticus 20:11 (Note that the Bible differentiates “mother” from “father’s wife”, because polygamy was acceptable in those days)
If a man sleeps with his father’s wife, he has dishonored his father. Both the man and the woman must be put to death.
Leviticus 20:12 (A particular form of adultery is specifically mentioned as a death penalty offense, even though all forms of adultery were already marked for death in Leviticus 20:10. Maybe this type of adultery is supposed to be punished with a particularly nasty death)
If a man sleeps with his daughter-in-law, both of them must be put to death.
Leviticus 20:13 (Kill all homosexuals; that’s Biblical tolerance for you)
If a man lies with a man as one lies with a woman, both of them have done what is detestable. They must be put to death.
Do these commands and actions seem like the behaviour of a rational, logical being? There’s more, and it’s even worse:
Leviticus 26:14-16,22,25,29-33 (God describes the horrible punishment, which includes forcing his victims to eat their own children, for breaking the rules laid out in the Book of Leviticus. Note that I did not quote most of these rules for the sake of brevity. If you read the entire Book of Leviticus, you will see how bizarre and arbitrary some of these rules are. For example, in Leviticus 19:19 he makes it a sin to cross-breed animals, plant two kinds of seed in one field, or wear a cotton-polyester shirt. Obviously, these three are victimless “crimes”, and in the modern era, we would not consider them crimes at all)
But if you will not listen to me and carry out all these commands, and if you reject my decrees and abhor my laws and fail to carry out all my commands and so violate my covenant, then I will do this to you: I will bring upon you sudden terror, wasting diseases and fever that will destroy your sight and drain away your life. You will plant seed in vain, because your enemies will eat it.
I will send wild animals against you, and they will rob you of your children, destroy your cattle and make you so few in number that your roads will be deserted.
And I will bring the sword upon you to avenge the breaking of the covenant. When you withdraw into your cities, I will send a plague among you, and you will be given into enemy hands.
You will eat the flesh of your sons and the flesh of your daughters. I will destroy your high places, cut down your incense altars and pile your dead bodies on the lifeless forms of your idols, and I will abhor you. I will turn your cities into ruins and lay waste your sanctuaries, and I will take no delight in the pleasing aroma of your offerings. I will lay waste the land, so that your enemies who live there will be appalled. I will scatter you among the nations and will draw out my sword and pursue you. Your land will be laid waste, and your cities will lie in ruins.
These aren’t punishments for crimes. These are cruel, monstrous instructions, designed to inflict suffering, often for victimless ‘crimes’, or huge over-reactions to misdemeanours.
Through all of this, a question needs asking – why the Christian version of God? How can SoM be certain that God is not better represented through Judaism, Islam, Sikhism, Hinduism, or for that matter, the pantheons of the Norse, Greek, and Roman gods? SoM is so convinced, not only of the benevolence of the Christian God, but of their existence, but Biblical history has no more been proven than any other religion. It’s entirely possible that the truth is something no one has considered.
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Dear Meerkat, You post proves my point that idiocy is the mind on atheism. Your post is a garbled mess of incoherent nonsense.
Hmm, you don’t offer much in the way of a rebuttal. Perhaps you are unfamiliar with the Old Testament, and the violent instructions and actions contained with it? I can provide many more examples of God’s unreasonable wrath. In the meantime, I shall await your answer to my question at the end of my post with great interest.
Ben, I’ve answered your concerns about the Old Testament many times. That you do not comprehend answers repeated to you many times speaks to my thesis that atheism debilitates the mind.
You haven’t addressed my concerns, you merely went out of your way to justify acts of bloody slaughter, acts that if we thought were committed by/ordered by human beings, we’d be horrified by.
Richard Dawkins was right when he said:
“The God of the Old Testament is arguably the most unpleasant character in all fiction: jealous and proud of it; a petty, unjust, unforgiving control-freak; a vindictive, bloodthirsty ethnic cleanser; a misogynistic, homophobic, racist, infanticidal, genocidal, filicidal, pestilential, megalomaniacal, sadomasochistic, capriciously malevolent bully.”
Imagine how different Christianity might be had they binned the Old Testament? Of course, what would Evangelicals be without their violent, angry God? I’ve received scores of threats from Evangelical zealots. I wonder if they would be so hateful if it wasn’t for their belief that the OT and NT deity are one and the same?
I don’t know if it’s true of any denomination, but I recall from when my wedding bands were being read in a Church of England establishment, that pretty much every sermon was based around the New Testament, and they spoke of the acts of kindness displayed by Jesus and his followers. I don’t subscribe to their beliefs, but these people were among the kindest souls I have ever met, and they provided a genuinely warm welcome to my wife and I when we first attended the small little Church of theirs. We had only gone to hear our wedding bands, but we made friends there. It’s a far cry from the angry fire and brimstone approach of the fundies.
God’s duty is to maintain peace and order of this world. What you have stated in your article is all list of sinful or wrongful acts which you don\’t even realize. This can be nicely explained by example. When the country is in national emergency all the fundamental rights of the citizen will be suspended. Peace and order of the country is the paramount law. In order to save the family, one member in the family should be sacrificed at any cost, in order to save the village a family should be sacrificed, in order to save the state one village can be sacrificed, in order to save the country a state can be sacrificed.
The situation is same during those days, people like you who don’t even understand what is good and bad were living in those times. There are 4 classes of people the priestly class who are saintly in there character and were not interested in materialistic life and illicit sex. Their aim of life is spiritual advancement, the second class of people are administrative class or warriors who should maintain peace and order of the state by punishing the criminals, the third class of people are agriculturist and traders who should produce nice grains and vegetables and provide basic necessities of life to all people in a fair manner. The fourth class of people are laborers who assist nicely and faithfully the above three class of people. If there is discrepancy in the any one or four class, there will be social disruption and the entire world will be put to jeopardy and chaos.
You are just portraying the incidences as gastly but you failed to understand the seriousness and gravity of such wrongful acts. The essence is unrestricted sense enjoyment is the cause of suffering and destruction. So, it is said in all the scriptures whenever there is rise in irreligion or sinful activities the lord comes personally or sends his empowered representative like Jesus Christ to check such wrongs and establish real religion for the peace and order of the entire mankind.
One should have broad-vision and intelligence to foresee the result of such activities. we theist people are intelligent than you because we follow the commandments of God. You people are so much engrossed in sex life intoxication and meat eating that you don’t have intelligence to foresee the result of such an act.
Thank you for your comment ‘Spartan Theist’, but you’ll find that here, on my site, insulting my intelligence because I do not follow your beliefs is a very poor way of convincing me of your position. You are attempting to argue that, among other things, unkempt hair is reason enough for God, in their supposed wisdom, to kill someone. I am not interested in long-winded justifications for murderous acts from a supposedly loving God, and nor am I interested in your declarations of how intelligent you (sorry, ‘theists’) are.
“You people are so much engrossed in sex life intoxication and meat eating that you don’t have intelligence to foresee the result of such an act.“
Drunk on sex and burgers . Just need some beer to wash it down.
Oh man, a good burger is absolutely glorious. I have a real weakness for the bacon double-cheeseburger from Burger King.
Smiles, I’m not here to convince or insult your intelligence because you are not going to accept good principles anyway. I just presented the truth that you people have no such discrimination between good and bad. If God is bad then whatever arguments you had made should have effect on all people. Right?. It should have convinced thousands of Christians and other religions and they should have turned in to atheist like you. But it is not happening. So, your arguments and references is simply to find fault in the scriptures and use it as a lame reason to accept the atheistic ideology and live without any discrimination of good and bad.
On contrary we are not convinced by your atheistic presentation of bible as it is deviated from moral and spiritual values. We pity for your ignorance.
Hmm. You say you’re not here to be insulting, then state I won’t accept ‘good principles’. It seems to me you are indeed here with the intention of being rude, and if not, what is your intention? Because the only alternative I can see is that this is some kind of preening exercise for you, where you lord it over non-believers in an arrogant, prideful fashion (perhaps you have forgotten, pride is a sin).
Your argument that Christianity would never have taken root if God is bad is in error, because you overlook one undeniable fact about organised religion as a whole: fear is a powerful motivator. You must have heard people refer to themselves as ‘God-fearing Christians’. Fear is quite apt. This supposedly good, moral being threatens eternal punishment with no hope of redemption, unless they are obeyed, and obeyed in the right way (which is the subject of disagreement – and historically, violent conflict – within Christianity and between other religions). Failure to be pious led to the terrible instructions of ‘eating one’s own children’, which no one of sound mind would do today, no matter who gave the order.
You insist atheists have no morals, yet I know plenty of atheists who would rightly baulk at the bloodthirsty slaughter that soaks the Old Testament. That’s not a lack of morality; that’s a rejection of terrible practices and ideas.
The bottom line is, you do not have any understanding of what ‘atheistic’ ideology is. Indeed, your very phrasing proves this. Atheists are not some homogenous group. Atheism is merely the lack of religious belief. It is not an ideology in and of itself. I would suggest you educate yourself instead of preening.
Ben, I already answered to your article. In emergency situation in order to establish righteousness and to destroy the irreligious weeds in the society. There is necessity to act violently. Violence is needed to establish good principles for the ultimate peace and order of the society. Just like government uses military force and kills terrorist or evil elements to save the country and people. The soldiers who killed enemies are praised and given honoree title by president of the country. We don’t find in the scriptures that god kills righteous people and people who obey his commandments. Even if there is an incidence which appears to be strange like killing a child or animals it is highly specific and it is for purification and liberation of that particular soul and it is not applicable for everybody.
Our material body belongs to God because no scientists created this universe and our body. Our body is sustained by holy spirit and that holy spirit is eternal and it cannot be destroyed or killed. Soul is eternal and it transmigrates from one body to another. This has been scientifically proved by UVA professors the reincarnation of humans. Which you can find in their website Dr.Jim. Tucker.
We can find in history like Late Russian stallin, lenin, polpot and other atheist leaders like hitler (atheist in the disguise of Christian) commited mass killings and massacres without any reason. Just for the sake of power, prestige and money these atheist leaders indiscriminately killed even their wife, son’s and daughters and even his own country men and generals in millions.
So, we see in the scriptures that God does not indiscriminately kill people without valid reason in millions.
God kills only those who are obstinate criminals who are averse to good principles. These obstinate rebellious minded people cannot be reformed by gentle advice. They are just animals and they should be treated in the language of animals. If these obstinate rebellious people are left unchecked they will cause great disturbance in the society and it will result in chaos of the entire human race.
Further as per the philosophical understanding if God is the creator of this universe and all living entities. All human beings is subjected to the laws of God no one can act whimsically in this world. Our material body is the property of God and if it is misused in unrestricted sense gratification like sex outside the legal marriage, too much addiction to intoxication, gambling and cheating. it amounts to offence or sin. When sinful reaction accumulate that soul has to suffer hellish life in this planet and in his next life also. So, God actually is saving us from commiting further sin by stopping the activities of our body.
I know Ben you are not going to appreciate any of the spiritual truths and you will simply dismiss all of my statements and say God is a killer. But we never mind your ignorance just like a 3-year old child keeps on saying the same thing without understanding the actual truths of life. Lord jesus Christ and Bible is accepted as holy in other religions also. If god is bad as you present then why you cannot convert all the theist in to atheist?. Because popular atheist leaders history is more ghastly than God’s vilence depicted in the bible.
I don’t appreciate your ‘spiritual truths’, because they are nothing more than a string of opinions, and a lot of straining, to justify barbaric acts. Nor will I fall for your charlatan, misleading antics that conflate atheism with political ideologies, nor your desire to erase history to pretend Hitler was an atheist. All you have offered so far are the same tired arguments to defend your version of God, which I have heard countless times before, just as I have encountered your style of arrogance before.
As we expected nothing surprising and intellectual reflections from you. One needs piety and mercy of God to understand that he is not this body he is different from his body. Unless one realizes that he is spirit soul, he talks all nonsense and remain as atheist. We have no problems in accepting a God punishing the criminals and atheist to maintain peace and order of the entire world and for spiritual elevation of human beings . You simply neglected the reincarnation of human beings proven scientifically by UVA professors and therefore you are against science also. And you have not answered why you cannot convert all theist in to atheist in spite of your negative presentation of bible. You also simply avoided to answer about ruthless massacres commited by atheist leaders in millions. So, it is pretty clear that since you don’t want to accept God and follow his commandments. You ridicule God by negatively presenting bible without understanding its moral and spiritual values.
So, no sane man who appreciates moral and spiritual values is going to be bothered by your childish fault finding attempts.
Thank you very much Ben, for exposing your actual intentions.
Cheers.
Your word salad is of no interest to me. Your declarations of evidence (where have you proven reincarnation?!) are empty. Your efforts to justify wholesale slaughter as just punishment are weak. Your conflation of atheism with political ideologies is deceitful. There are no moral values to be found in Leviticus 10:6 – ‘Then Moses said to Aaron and his sons Eleazar and Ithamar, “Do not let your hair become unkempt, and do not tear your clothes, or you will die and the LORD will be angry with the whole community.’ There’s no spiritual value to be found in Leviticus 26:14-16,22,25,29-33, which includes ‘You will eat the flesh of your sons and the flesh of your daughters.’ If you are so blinkered that you cannot see these violent commands for the angry tantrums they are, then you are a troubled individual.
That’s why we say these people are animals they are not inclined to any gentle advice. These people are so sinful like you they fear only death. . They are primary instructions to make them purified from sinful propensities to elevate them to the spiritual platform. Unless the punishment is grave nobody takes the good instruction seriously and restrains from wrongful deeds.
The point is God wants us to give a better life and he wants everybody to go to the place where is no birth and death. If the object of punishment is to reform the human beings for giving us better life. Then it is not violence it is mercy and love. Just like a judges imposes death penalty to a criminal, we cannot accuse judge is cruel and the government is cruel. It is mercy because stopping the criminal from doing further crime is good for him and to the entire society.
So, Ben you are not in the position to appreciate about spirit soul, transmigration of soul as you are covered by the mode of ignorance. Reincarnation of human beings is proved By UVA professors and if you cannot accept such scientific findings It’s your problem. You cannot ridicule God who is eternal and spiritual without understanding the spiritual identity of your real nature.
If you believe there is no life after death and there is no such thing like transmigration of soul or spirit soul. Your arguments is just based on the material plane and you are seeing the one side of the coin of life. You are not seeing the whole picture of plan of God.
Moreover, the bible should be read wholly and not partially grasping some specific text and pointing faults to support your atheistic belief and ideas.
2. (3-8) Blessings on obedient Israel: plentiful harvests, peace, victory in battle.
‘If you walk in My statutes and keep My commandments, and perform them, then I will give you rain in its season, the land shall yield its produce, and
the trees of the field shall yield their fruit. Your threshing shall last till the time of vintage, and the vintage shall last till the time of sowing;
you shall eat your bread to the full, and dwell in your land safely. I will give peace in the land, and you shall lie down, and none will make you afraid;
I will rid the land of evil beasts, and the sword will not go through your land. You will chase your enemies, and they shall fall by the sword before you.
Five of you shall chase a hundred, and a hundred of you shall put ten thousand to flight; your enemies shall fall by the sword before you.
3. (9-13) Blessings on obedient Israel: abundance, the presence of God, freedom.
For I will look on you favorably and make you fruitful, multiply you and confirm My covenant with you. You shall eat the old harvest, and clear out the
old because of the new. I will set My tabernacle among you, and My soul shall not abhor you. I will walk among you and be your God, and you shall be My
people. I am the LORD your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt, that you should not be their slaves; I have broken the bands of your yoke and
made you walk upright.
1. (14-17) Disobedient Israel will be cursed with fear and weakness.
2. (18-20) Disobedient Israel will be cursed with poor harvests.
3. (21-22) Disobedient Israel will be cursed by wild beasts.
4. (23-26) Disobedient Israel will be cursed with pestilence and famine.
5. (27-35) Disobedient Israel will be cursed by death, desolation, and exile.
So, It’s only when the disobedient person is punished severely when he intentionally disobeys the commandments of God 4 times. So, God gives four chances to repent for his wrongs and if he is still doesn’t repent and correct himself then he should be punished severely because he is a hard core criminal.
Thanks Ben again, for pointing out how God is merciful and gives 4 chances to the criminals to realize and rectify their wrongs. Yay.
It would seem Spartan, that you are still desperately reaching.
If the object of punishment is to reform, then eternal punishment is cruel, and senseless, and will achieve nothing. Forcing someone to eat their own child is not an act of mercy by any reasonable standard, and you have utterly failed to justify it (please don’t say you have, there is nothing that can justify such a cruel punishment). You haven’t offered any links or quotes regarding your reincarnation claim, but I did look into it, and the kicker of that is, if it is ‘proven’ by scientific means (which is actually a hugely dubious claim on your part), it would be definition invalidate any supernatural claims! Furthermore, mainstream Christianity has historically rejected reincarnation, so if anything, proof of reincarnation would validate Buddhism and Hinduism (among others), but not Christianity.
If you wish to continue commenting on this or any other post, then consider these questions:
1. Would you kill your own child, and eat their flesh, if commanded to by God, yes or no (and please, no waffle about the OT being fulfilled or anything like that, this is a yes or no question, so answer it in those terms)
2. Do you believe unkempt hair is grounds for death, yes or no?
It is for those meat eaters who indiscriminately kill poor animals to satisfy their taste buds. It is to make that hard core criminal realize just it is very difficult and suffering to kill his own child and eat his babies flesh similarly, that hard core criminal should feel in a similar way, whenever he wants to kill an poor animals to eat its flesh, which is just like a child. Which cannot able to protest or defend itself.
Thou shall not kill is the commandment. Do you understand?. Yawns.
Thank you for failing to even attempt to address the question in the way I asked you to. I can see fruitful conversation with you is going to prove impossible. You are a devout believer, unwilling or unable to even consider that the actions you defend would be appalling to any reasonable person. I am not inclined to waste my time debating with devout believers, who are not open to any notion that they may be wrong.
unkempt hair is grounds for death for priestly class of persons only and not for others. when it is intentionally done several times even after several chances of rectification given by God. Yawns.
It’s still a stupid reason to kill someone.
Its stupid for you because you are a criminal.
What crime have I committed?