PM Rishi Sunak has made dealing with immigrants arriving by small boats one of his government’s top priorities. At a time when our bills are rising and Tories are getting rich off the back of poverty, is this really the electorate’s main concern? Of course not. However, the Tories (and their mates in the right-wing media) will scream and shout about immigrants, as they so often do, to avoid facing responsibility for their numerous shortcomings, and to distract people from their shortcomings.
Leaving aside this cynical, misleading tactic, Tory proposals are also cruel. As the Twitter video tells us, going through legal immigration channels is not possible when bombs are destroying your city. ‘I’ll pop along to the foreign office, I know there are enemy tanks rolling in, but that’s no excuse not to do it legally!’ If you think people fleeing from civil strife and wars have the time to go through the legal process of immigration, you are woefully ignorant.
It is not a crime to be a refugee. It is certainly not a choice anyone willingly makes. Denying these desperate people help when they most need it… that should be a crime, and it is certainly callous. It is also very in-keeping with the Tories.
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Most of the so-called refugees coming to the USA are just men looking for jobs. I doubt that is any less true in the UK, but sob stories play better.
What happens in the USA when we don’t enforce our borders? We get lots of illegal drugs, disease, increased welfare and education costs, low wages for the unskilled, gang crime,…… Is the UK different? I doubt it.
This is hard-right philosophy 101. Immigrants are deceivers, right?
Except, I don’t believe that. The vast majority are seeking better lives for themselves. There are many who are fleeing terrible situations back home. The problems you speak of are not the fault of border control. Here in the UK at least, the problems are with austerity measures, that assist in making the rich richer and the poor poorer, whilst creating scapegoats in the form of immigrants.
You speak of welfare… well, what if I told you that both in the UK and USA, there are enough resources to ensure no one went hungry, or cold, but a culture of greed (disguised as conservatism) was the root of the problem? Wages could go up… but it’s often right-wing politicians who stand in the way of that, whilst the huge corporations rake in huge profits, indeed, record-breaking profits.
The energy companies BP and Shell have recently recorded their greatest-ever profits, at a time when UK energy bills are soaring, yet the base costs are in fact decreasing. Are the Tories set to demand lower bills, or enforce this in any way? Nope, but then, why would they? There are numerous links between these companies and the UK government: https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2022/feb/20/lobbyists-for-oil-and-gas-companies-shell-bp-exxonmobil
We have water companies dumping sewage in our rivers and beaches, we have one of the slowest-growing economies in Europe right now, thanks to the Tory-led folly of Brexit, and we’ve had people in government who genuinely believed they had every right to party in defiance of their own lockdown rules, whilst people died, but let’s create fear and turmoil over the ‘problem’ of immigrants. It’s a convenient smokescreen to distract from the real problems of this government.
It is, as I already mentioned in my post, cruel. Many of these people are escaping war and chaos, is it the Christian thing to turn our backs on them?
Exodus 22:21: Do not mistreat or oppress a foreigner, for you were foreigners in Egypt.
Deuteronomy: 10:18: He defends the cause of the fatherless and the widow, and loves the foreigner residing among you, giving them food and clothing.
Hewbrews 13:2: Do not forget to show hospitality to strangers, for by so doing some people have shown hospitality to angels without knowing it.
Matthew 25: 31-46: 31 “When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, he will sit on his glorious throne.
32 All the nations will be gathered before him, and he will separate the people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats.
33 He will put the sheep on his right and the goats on his left.
34 “Then the King will say to those on his right, ‘Come, you who are blessed by my Father; take your inheritance, the kingdom prepared for you since the creation of the world.
35 For I was hungry and you gave me something to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me something to drink, I was a stranger and you invited me in,
36 I needed clothes and you clothed me, I was sick and you looked after me, I was in prison and you came to visit me.’
37 “Then the righteous will answer him, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you something to drink?
38 When did we see you a stranger and invite you in, or needing clothes and clothe you?
39 When did we see you sick or in prison and go to visit you?’
40 “The King will reply, ‘Truly I tell you, whatever you did for one of the least of these brothers and sisters of mine, you did for me.’
41 “Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels.
42 For I was hungry and you gave me nothing to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me nothing to drink,
43 I was a stranger and you did not invite me in, I needed clothes and you did not clothe me, I was sick and in prison and you did not look after me.’
44 “They also will answer, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or needing clothes or sick or in prison, and did not help you?’
45 “He will reply, ‘Truly I tell you, whatever you did not do for one of the least of these, you did not do for me.’
46 “Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life.”
With respect to politics, the terms Right and Left are useless. There is no practical difference between Nazism and Socialism/Communism.
So, you put a label on me that is virtually meaningless. When you call me “hard right,” it just says you think I am an extremist of some sort. I guess that means you think you really don’t have to take me seriously. You have given yourself an out. Now you can spout all the usual politically correct platitudes.
Welfare is great! We will never run out of other people’s money. So, why don’t we give other people’s money to the “poor”?
Greedy corporations are making record profits. We don’t have to think about why that is so. We can just insinuate that the “hard right” must be a bunch of heartless Crony Capitalist dupes.
Has it occurred to you that Citizen Tom might like seeing the big companies forced to compete?
It is all Brexit fault. Forget the problems caused by Socialism, including the version we call Crony Capitalism.
Did you know that that the worse pollution occurs in Socialist/Communist countries?
No country can withstand endless streams of refugees. Ever heard of the Tower of Babel? Ever wonder why people who cannot speak the same language have to separate themselves from each other? Are you familiar with the term “balkanize”?
You want to help people? This “hard right” extremist did not tell you to do otherwise. Here is what I suggest.
1. Don’t screw up your own country. Our first obligation is to our own family, friends, neighbors, and countrymen.
2. Spend your own money. Spending other people’s money is stealing.
3. Help people in their own countries where they are with people who speak their own language and share their cultural values. You will be more effective.
Are there war refugees? Yes. Putin, for example, has encouraged war refugees because they are disruptive. That is why he has little interest in letting most of those refugees into territory he controls, but he is happy to see them streaming into the West.
Sometimes we have no practical choice. We allow people running from genocide and tyranny to immigrate because they will die if we don’t, but that is not true of the vast majority of immigrants. It is silly to pretend otherwise.
The Bible quote is funny. Obviously, you want to accuse me of hypocrisy. Well, I don’t meet God’s standards, but do you think Jesus was talking about spending other people’s money and time? Seriously? LOL!
Firstly, I did not call you anything, so if my use of expressions like ‘hard-right’ struck a chord…
You might rally behind the corporations (and let’s be real, unchecked capitalism and the conservative right have been bedfellows for decades), but is the world a better place for it? I’ve yet to see any tangible benefit behind letting energy companies rake in record-breaking profits, whilst at the other end, people struggle to heat their homes, or have to choose between eating and heating. Yup, big win that… for the corporations, and no one else.
You speak of competition, yet it is in countries where energy companies are nationalised that see the lowest increases in bills, because those companies are not permitted to rip off the consumer. Much of the EU is not struggling with bills nearly as much as the UK: https://eciu.net/insights/2022/energy-prices-how-the-uk-compares#:~:text=A%20survey%20of%202021%20power,hour%20(kWh)%20of%20electricity.&text=Across%2060%20tariffs%2C%20Britain%20came,Denmark%20(%240.35%20per%20kWh).
There are 37 energy suppliers in the UK, that’s a lot of competition, yet no benefit to the consumer from it. Funny that…
I love how you seek to blame socialism for virtually everything. Perhaps you should consider how Brexit has damaged the UK – lately, whilst European supermarkets remained healthily stocked, we couldn’t get fresh veg. We were having to ration. Is that down to socialism? Hardly. We have a hard-right, pro-profit government, and have had a Conservative-led government for 13 years. In that time, the number of food banks has overtaken the number of McDonald’s restaurants. 11% of the UK population now use them.
In terms of being green, the UK is not greener than the likes of Sweden, Finland, Denmark or Norway, where the Nordic model (a demonstration that socialism can be merged with business principles) is proving highly effective at producing healthy societies (in more ways than one).
So, let’s see about how you would suggest I help others:
1. Well, 13 years of increasingly decrepit Tory rule, the folly of Brexit, and unchecked greed has already ruined the UK, so how would you suggest we change that?
2. The aforementioned countries like Sweden, Denmark etc have universal healthcare, free higher education etc, which I imagine to you is a form of theft, yet these countries are doing quite well across key metrics, like life expectancy and education levels. Here in the UK, university education is rapidly becoming a plaything of the wealthy, and is inaccessible to the working classes. One could argue that the money raised in taxes is our own money, and instead of reasonable investments here in the UK, we are being plundered by various corporations, with the backing of many of our MPs.
3. obviously help people, wherever possible, where they are. However, that doesn’t mean we can’t help them if they come here.
I dare say it’s silly to believe that most immigrants are only in it for the money. If they want a better life for themselves and their loved ones, is that bad? If they are willing to work, as they so often are, to better themselves, should we turn them away?
The Bible quotes – plural, for there were quite a few – make it clear that it is not the Christian thing to turn away people in need. The proposed UK laws would do exactly that. Whether fleeing war, poverty, famine, or any one of a number of problems, would Jesus say to turn them away, in case money had to be spent to help them? That attitude rather sums up the greed problem…
Thing is Tom, the resources most definitely exist to provide for millions currently stuck in poverty, whilst still allowing the rich to remain rich! It would not take a lot to deal with say, homelessness, but because there’s no profit in it, there’s no will to do it. If you’d rather see the likes of Musk and Bezos have say, £50 billion each, whilst people in supposedly first-world countries go hungry, than £30 billion each, and everyone gets a roof over their heads and food, then perhaps you should reconsider what it means to be Christian…
@Tom
You realise,I hope that, your god, Jesus of Nazareth was,ostensibly, a Socialist.
Ah, but that can be quietly ignored when it’s expedient to do so!
Think about what you are doing. You write a post. I point out that your video is basically misrepresenting the situation. The immigrants are not who your say they are. Similarly, you have created a straw man for your opposition. Only the most mean and greedy people would oppose unfettered immigration.
So, what do you do when I point your video is based upon fiction? Even if you have to completely change the subject, you continue to attack a straw man.
If what you want is so great, why don’t you argue for it?
You have the same problem Socialist have. What you want is not practical. They are better ways to achieve better results.
Consider the basic argument for funding Socialism. “Make the rich pay their fair share.” That argument doesn’t define what that fair shore might be, and it ignores the fact that the rich don’t have enough money to fund all the promises that Socialists make. In addition, it ignores the fact that the rich already pay more taxes than anyone else.
Instead of trying to solve a problem, you are defining a villain. That is what extremists do. You may want to think about how the ideas of the people you support are actually going to work in practice.
I’m curious as to why you believe I am indulging in strawman arguments here Tom. I’ve addressed your ‘points’ RE immigrants not being what you think they are. Where you apparently see devious, job-snatching, welfare hunting types, I see desperate people, who want help. I believe most immigrants fall into two categories – those who want a better life for themselves and their loved ones, and those fleeing horrific situations. There is also a lot of overlap between those two categories.
I pointed out the reasons why the Tory government is so determined to make this into a huge issue. They are seeking to distract from disastrous performances elsewhere. The UK is breaking, and whereas you appear to want to blame socialism for everything, it’s worth looking at the sort of government that we’ve had here in the UK for the past 13 years. It’s a Tory government, driven by the hard-right, that has enacted the economic own goal of Brexit. It’s a Tory government that’s enabled water companies to dump raw sewage into our rivers as a cost-cutting exercise. It’s a Tory government that’s got various party members entangled with energy companies who rake in their greatest ever profits, at a time when people have to choose between eating or heating. These are problems created not by immigrants, but by our right-wing Tory government. They need a scapegoat, a smokescreen, a distraction. We’re seeing that in action.
What better ways do you propose to eliminate poverty, homelessness and hunger Tom? Doing things in exactly the same way as we are, which is achieving precisely nothing? What would you advocate for? I’ve presented arguments in the past, and provided links and information showing how even relatively small tax increases on the wealthy could have tangible, positive impacts on the problems I listed. I can happily steer you to those posts. They aren’t perfect solutions, but we don’t have to choose between zero and 100% effectiveness, do we?
Instead of justifying what you want, you continue to attack a caricature of your opposition, a straw man. I am not going to waste my time denying a constant stream of misrepresentations. What is the point? The fact is you cannot justify what you want.
When I point out that redistributing the wealth is stealing, you point to other people who you say are stealing to justify yourself. Do you realize how childish that is? If I asked you the purpose of government, could you explain it? If I asked you what makes it morally acceptable to tax people, could you say anything that makes sense?
Most of the refugees coming into the UK are just poorly educated men looking for jobs. There is no crime or shame in that, but accepting those people does not benefit the USA or UK as a whole. It benefits corporations who employ low wage workers and politicians who want to spend other people’s money.
You have effectively called me an extremist and a shill for big corporations. Try using a mirror.
What exactly do you want me to justify Tom? Do you even know what I want, or are you using buzzwords like ‘strawman’ to attack my argument, without actually attacking my argument or addressing my points (how ironic)?
What you call theft, I call ensuring people pay what they should. The real theft comes in the form of unchecked and rampant profiteering, at a time when people are literally unable to eat. I thought you were a Christian Tom, where did Jesus say that it was right to hoard wealth whilst others starved? I don’t recall that bit of the Bible, do enlighten me…
You’re attacking arguments I haven’t even made, whilst not actually addressing the questions I posed to you. I’ll repeat the question you completely ignored:
What better ways do you propose to eliminate poverty, homelessness and hunger Tom? Doing things in exactly the same way as we are, which is achieving precisely nothing? What would you advocate for?
You know what makes it acceptable to tax people? Because if left to their own devices, no one, even supposedly good, charitable Christians, would lift a finger to help anyone. This has been demonstrated by the Tories. They’re more interested in skimming the cream off the top of corporate profits, than in taxing those profits and helping to fund sorely needed infrastructure. You cannot count on Bezos paying his workforce a fair wage off his own back; he’s too busy spending hundreds of millions of dollars launching himself into space. Musk could pay his employees better, but spends billions on vanity projects instead. Is all of that morally acceptable Tom?
I’ll continue to disagree with you on refugees. Most of them are desperate, frightened people, and I cannot believe that you would advocate for turning them away.
If you feel I’ve implied you’re an extremist, then perhaps you’re right. Your comments thus far have certainly not suggested you are anything but. That might seem harsh, but it’s my honest opinion of your arguments and positions. I’ve referenced the numerous failings of our current government, and how the Tories are now using immigration as a smokescreen, and you haven’t really addressed any of that. Instead, you have devoted time to claiming I make strawman arguments, but you don’t actually seem to know (or want to know) what my arguments are. Nor have you addressed the questions I posed to you in my last post. Try doing that, before you tell me to look in the mirror.
You are trying to use your supposedly noble ends to justify the means. So, you used a video that misrepresents both immigrants and your opposition. On top of that you argue that the only possible solution is the one you demand, and opposing your noble solution is the vilest extremism.
Even though you are using the end to justify the means, you ignore the fact that your solution risks creating more harm that it is supposed to fix. Redistribution of the wealth is essence of Socialism. Socialism never works, never has worked. When Socialism is implemented without violence, it takes more time to corrupt a government, but the ideology of Socialism will corrupt any government.
Tom, I asked you some questions, which you have ignored. You have also misrepresented my entire position now, and the idea that the Twitter video misrepresents anything is nothing more than your opinion.
If you are not willing to address the questions or arguments posed, this conversation is over.